Question on how much fruit to use.

[Espoir]

Hey all, got another set of questions to ask everyone.

I was thinking of making a set of watermelon wine (red wine) since my current 2 batches (Pineapple and apple wine) turned out yellow. But I was looking at the recipe in jack keller and the amount of watermelon juice you need to make the wine is just crazy. No water added so you need 1:1 ratio the amount of wine you are going to make.

I was thinking of making a watermelon/pineapple blend thus allowing me to add some water in. Any suggestions on the ratio of the juice to water ratio?

By the way, as a standard what is the normal ratio you guys use? And I have heard many people talk about the jack keller's recipes being too dry thus they suggest adding more fruits and less sugar, but how much more fruits and how much less sugar do you normally add?




P.S: While we are on the subject, let me bother you with another question if you guys do not mind. For making passionfruit wine recipes, while looking at jack keller's recipe

he said to "cut fruits coarsely and put in nylon bags" so.. do I ferment the skin of the passion fruit as well as the tons of seeds which passionfruits has? Thanks =)

 

[Deezil]

Watermelon being the subtle flavor that it is, your blend will still probably be mostly watermelon juice, to achieve a balanced blend. Keep in mind also that watermelon, for some odd reason, has a tendency to spoil quicker/easier than other fruits.

Were it me, i still wouldnt add water.. Despite the fact that it fits my philosophy of "no water needed" (with exceptions of out-of-control acids) in winemaking. You'll get varying opinions on different fruit/water ratios, but most are bottom-line 5-6lbs/gallon. Some nutcases like myself, go with all fruit & no aqua.

The issue with Jack Keller's recipes that you mentioned, is not that they're too dry, persay. It's more that when you make them the way he suggests, they generally end up being weak-medium bodied with a flavor profile to match. By up'ing the amount of fruit, you increase the amount of sugars that also contains flavor - its a '2-for-1', compared to cane sugar.

Sugar additions should always be calculated by measuring the SG, so the amount of sugar isnt something that can be defined - the SG is, generally aiming for an adjusted SG of 1.085-1.090, roughly 11.5-12%.

As for the passionfruit, i'll leave that to the more tropical members

 

[Turock]

Only use the very center of the watermelon,where the flavor is the best.

As Deezil said, be sure to get some meta on the fruit as you work with it because it spoils fast. You should use calcium carbonate to adjust the acid, because it's quite high.

 

[BobF]

Note - Watermelon will Not be a red wine. All of the red will settle out.

 

[Minnesotamaker]

I've never made a watermelon wine. From reading other people's experiences, it is a really troublesome fruit. It seems to spoil before it ferments leaving a nasty sour taste.

 

[Luc]

But I was looking at the recipe in jack keller and the amount of watermelon juice you need to make the wine is just crazy. No water added so you need 1:1 ratio the amount of wine you are going to make.

This is the way you should make all of your wines besides some exceptions.
Pure juice.
Think grapes. Do you really think a commercial winemaker would add water to his grapejuice. Or water down apple juice ???

Luc

 

[Espoir]

I have never thought of it that way.. always just followed jack keller's recipe like a bible.

I think I will add much more fruit juice to water ratio now but still add some water because i am broke as hell

so whatever water i remove from jack keller's recipe i replace it with the same weight of juice? is that right?

By the way I still need some advice on the passionfruit wine if anyone has any.

 

[Espoir]

Need some help guys....??

 

[Turock]

Technically, when using all fruit and no juice, you have to estimate how much wine it will make in order to figure out the amount of chemistries to add. What you are now doing is going "off recipe" and it will make a much better wine but a little difficult, in the beginning, to figure it out. After you do it a couple times, it becimes easier. Be sure to take good notes.

I didn't answer the passion fruit question because I've never worked with that fruit and not sure if the peel can go in or not. As long as the peel isn't astrigent, or has some other flaw, you can just toss it in. Lots of little seeds means it's a good idea to bag the fruit because when seeds get over in the secondary, they can sometimes give off flavors. We use knee-high nylon hosery for bags.

 

[bob1]

Luc do you water down the juice to get malic down to a ratio. Jacks recipe are so anyone can make wine using blend. I plan on pressing fruit soon for wine but am thinking of adding water to obtain a certain TA for the malic and then add tartaric to bring it up to where it needs to be.

 

[Turock]

bob----If you don't mind me jumping in here---We make many fruit wines. All of them done with no water. What we do, is ignore the TA but always check the PH and adjust if needed. PH has such an impact on flavor with fruit wines. If you pay attention to TA, you get tempted to adjust it, which means water, and you will lose the high flavor of a no water fruit wine. Maybe try it---doing what we do--and see for yourself if this isn't a good method.

We never use any acid except acid blend for fruit. That little bit of citric acid in there is a plus.

 

[Espoir]

Turock, if you do not mind, can you post a couple of recipes, which you modified on your own? I.E. from a recipe with added water to one with 100 percent fruit juice. So i can see how you adjusted the recipe?

Ohhhh, i was thinking i had to squeeze the juice out of the seeds or something. that sounds right then. thanks dude!

 

[roadwarriorsvt]

Espoir,
I'll be making passion fruit (lilikoi) wine as soon as it warms up a bit here. People sell the pulp on Craigslist by the pint/quart/gallon. I plan on buying a gallon and weighing it, keeping the 5# per gallon in mind. That may help determine how much I need. I saw the Jack Keller recipe for passion fruit wine you spoke about. The recipe is obviously somewhat of a "cookie cutter" recipe and he doesnt have any experience with passion fruit. I would not suggest putting in the hull, just the pulp. I made some lilikoi wine last year from the frozen concentrate (Hawaiian Sun brand) and it turned out beautiful!

 

[Turock]

Espoir--you really don't have to worry about a "recipe" as such. There's no difference in the amount of chemistries between 5 gallons of juice that water has been added to to bring it up to the 5 gallons---OR----no water and you have 5 gallons of pure juice. Well, that's not exactly true--if you add water you sometimes find yourself needing to add more acid.

The problem comes with ESTIMATING how much wine will be made from the quantity of fruit and juice you have. As an example---I know that 1 1/2 bushels of concord or Niagara grapes (which is 60 pounds) will make 5 gallons. I know that 40 pounds of red raspberries makes 5 gallons. 180 pounds of blackberries makes 15 gallons. It's from experience.

You get good at estimating as you go along. Doing all juice means you should be taking a PH reading with a meter, and adjusting if needed. I think acid readings are real important in all juice musts because you no longer have water to bring the PH up.

 

[bob1]

how long are you storing wines like this 2 years?

 

[Turock]

Yeah Bob. The bloom comes off the rose, so to speak, after that time.

 

[Espoir]

Thanks for your replies guys. I just found a supplier of fruit puree in indonesia, called "toza juice" felt like a jackpot when I found it

Might do a no water fruit wine with lychee, soursop, cranberry wine.

Just a little confused over the amount of sugar\water mixture to add in. I guess the best way to check is the S.G?

I will also do a ph check, lucky for me, I managed to buy a kg of calcium carbonate recently hehe.

Hope everything will turn out great .

P.S do I follow the normal procedure and add tannin. Pectic enzyme. Thanks guys.

 

[Turock]

That's right--take a hydrometer reading to know how much sugar to add for ABV. We shoot for 12.5%.

You can use the fruit purees by themselves or as a base (instead of water) that you add other fruits to. We tried a puree wine with a red raspberry and it was very weak. That may depend on the brand, as I've seen some people do it and have good success. But we sure didn't.

 

[Luc]

Luc do you water down the juice to get malic down to a ratio. Jacks recipe are so anyone can make wine using blend. I plan on pressing fruit soon for wine but am thinking of adding water to obtain a certain TA for the malic and then add tartaric to bring it up to where it needs to be.

Nope, Bob.

When I water down I water down to get to the desired TA I like this wine to be.
I do not water down to bring the Malic down and then add tartaric again. I water down to bring Total Acidity down to where I want it.

Mind you I state here again that the less you water down the more flavor you will get and the more sugar will be already in the must.
I am totally opposed to making f-packs for a wine that can be made good from the start. Using this method there will be no need to make an f-pack.

Luc

 

[mmadmikes1]

I have listened to Luc before and his advise is sound. I was making a raspberry reduction today to add to a wine I added water to. The idea, now that I think about it is silly. Add water at beginning and loss flavor than make a reduced juice(remove water) to add flavor back in. Seems I am adding an extra step.