Red Tomato Wine: Advice?!

[DrGriz]

I am starting out on a red tomato wine and would greatly appreciate some advice. I have the basics, but would like some suggestions from those who can maybe help!

I do 1 gallon batches because that's what equipment I have, and I like to experiment. Plus, much of the wild fruit I can collect is too precious and hard won to do more.

This is what I have done so far:

2 gallon bucket
6 lbs blended red tomatoes picked fresh and brought to me by a friend from his garden in Oregon, frozen, then thawed and sliced. I fine net bagged and pressed and collected the juice, then added water.
Water to 1.5 gal (anticipating 1/3 volume loss due to gross lees)
1 tab K campden
1/2 tsp tannin
1tsp Pectinase
1tsp nutrient

Question 1: the initial pH was 5.1. I use my neighbor's well water (pH 6.7) because my well water is pH 9.5 to 10, and I find that's a lot of acid to add. I understand that the dominant acid in tomatoes is oxalic, which I don't actually have. What I have read is most people use a given amount of acid blend, 2.5 tsp, but give no specific guidelines as to target pH. I plan to target around 3.5. But I also wonder if using pure citric acid as I do with most fruits would be better or worse than acid blend. What do people think?

Question 2: I have seen multiple yeasts used, and I have available 71B, K1-V1116, and good old EC1118. Any strong recommendations? What I am most fearful of is a "tomato volcano" someone described, especially since my bucket is relatively small for this volume. Fermentation temp will be 74F+ during the day, 68F at night. The other choice is my 47 degree basement.

Question 3: I understand the final wine will have a Chardonnay like flavor, if all goes well. I generally like Chardonnay that is dry and oaked. But I am in a little bit of a quandary as to whether to oak or not, and if so, at what point. I know that in one discussion Brian (winemaker81) mentioned adding it during ferment to preserve color, but others have said that would not work. But I also wonder about flavor. Any thoughts there would be appreciated.

I know that there's no terrible choices here. Just hoping for some thoughts!

​

 

[winemaker81]

I am currently leaning away from "acid blend", because the blend varies by vendor and ya don't know what you're getting. Some blends have a lot of malic in them, which I'd not want for this. Maybe 2/3 tartaric and 1/3 citric? Or reverse that proportion. I don't believe you can make a bad choice.

Target pH? 3.5 is good, and IMO +/- 0.2 is fine. I'm a lot less focused on initial pH that most.

Yeast? Anything that is good for Chardonnay would be my choice. I don't normally use EC-1118 for fermentation, but keep a packet in the fridge 'cuz if I have a problem ferment, it's my go-to.

Fermentation oak does not provide much, if any, aroma or flavor. Tomato wine doesn't have much color to stabilize, but the oak will provide some backbone that is likely to move the wine towards your goal. Try 1/2 to 1 cup oak shreds or chips during fermentation.

Post fermentation? The Chardonnays you like are probably barrel aged. Oak adjuncts do not work the same, and you could very easily over-oak the wine. I'd bulk age 3 months and taste it. If it's not where you want, add 1/4 oz oak cubes and bulk age another 3 months. Keep in mind that it's far easier to add more than it is to take some out.

 

[DrGriz]

Thank you for your generous suggestions, Bryan.

You are correct, the chardonnays I like are barrel aged. I'll follow your advice and add medium oak for fermentation and then check again in 3 months.

I only have citric acid and LD Carlson triple acid on hand, and couldn't put my hands on tartaric for some time. I'll probably adjust what I have with citric and then play with tartaric later at bottling time.

I have Red Star Premier Classique in addition to the above. It is said to be decent for Chardonnay and low foaming, as opposed to EC 1118 and K1V116 which would be high foaming Chardonnay yeasts. The 71B is said to be low foaming and good for ester formation and Chardonnay. I can't really lay my hands on anything else if I am going to pitch tomorrow. So I guess it's between 71B and Premier Classique if I'm to avoid a mess.

 

[winemaker81]

You could try 2/3 citric and 1/3 triple acid. Another option is to target 3.7-3.8 pH, and add tartaric later -- by taste -- if the wine is flabby.

Post-fermentation, adjust acid by taste. Your pH meter will never drink the wine so its opinion is of limited value. If the pH < 3.9, you've added K-meta, and you've observed good hygiene, the wine is safe from hostile microbial life. Take your time in making adjustments and keep in mind my statement about the difficulties of removing additions from wine ...

Both 71B and Premier Classique will work. Don't stress too much in deciding. You'll get a pleasing result regardless.

 

[DrGriz]

Mixing the triple acid and citric is a great idea!

And yes, I already have learned about putting the genie back into the bottle with chaptalization during backsweetening of other wines!

Thanks, Bryan!

 

[BigDaveK]

@DrGriz I can't add to Bryan's great advice, but I want to say that tomato was my first crazy wine. I expected alcoholic tomato juice. What a shocker when it was done. Absolutely wonderful! Tomato wine removed ALL my inhibitions as far as ingredients go.

Fingers crossed that you'll be shocked and happy, too! Good luck!

 

[DrGriz]

@DrGriz I can't add to Bryan's great advice, but I want to say that tomato was my first crazy wine. I expected alcoholic tomato juice. What a shocker when it was done. Absolutely wonderful! Tomato wine removed ALL my inhibitions as far as ingredients go.

Fingers crossed that you'll be shocked and happy, too! Good luck!

BigDave, when my friend told me he was bringing fresh picked tomatoes, I immediately thought of making wine. Then I read your thread, which really got me excited, and I learned enough to ask more questions!

I adjusted the pH of my must this morning to 3.6 with a mix of triple and citric acids, as Bryan suggested.
I chaptalized the SG up to 1.089 (it had already come up some on it's own overnight, probably equilibrating from the skins/seeds in the net bag). This should give me an ABV similar to the chardonnays I like. I added oak chips to the must as Bryan also suggested.

Lalvin 71B starter is going.

Then, we'll see!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The pigments in tomato are not stable. You will wind up with a clear white grape like liquid. If I wanted to have a tomato wine I would add a natural color ex 1/2 percent aronia berry. This will add some tannin so also builds the flavor. If you are going to the store for color 2 to 4% of blackberry or black raspberry will also build that shade. If done next harvest 2 to 4% mulberry juice also has a stable color with no tannin or lasting flavor.

When formulating pasta sauce the company used citric acid. I could also use an acid blend or tartaric with negligible flavor impact. I would not use malic. My personal pH goal is 3.2 to 3.3, this will put you in line with white grape.

I would use a tannin as chestnut or a low flavor tannin as BlancSoft.
There is insignificant pectin in tomato.
I have an excess of tomato therefore would not add water. To minimize the lees I would run through a fine mesh nylon bag. For the crop I have I might run home canned tomato in a filter funnel, letting it drip without pressure. Pressure increases the lees. Freezing is cleaner than using canned tomato, NOTE adding any pulp to the primary means lees, it is a fragile flesh.

Have fun, it is a nice wine.

 

[DrGriz]

The pigments in tomato are not stable. You will wind up with a clear white grape like liquid. If I wanted to have a tomato wine I would add a natural color ex 1/2 percent aronia berry. This will add some tannin so also builds the flavor. If you are going to the store for color 2 to 4% of blackberry or black raspberry will also build that shade. If done next harvest 2 to 4% mulberry juice also has a stable color with no tannin or lasting flavor.

When formulating pasta sauce the company used citric acid. I could also use an acid blend or tartaric with negligible flavor impact. I would not use malic. My personal pH goal is 3.2 to 3.3, this will put you in line with white grape.

I would use a tannin as chestnut or a low flavor tannin as BlancSoft.
There is insignificant pectin in tomato.
I have an excess of tomato therefore would not add water. To minimize the lees I would run through a fine mesh nylon bag. For the crop I have I might run home canned tomato in a filter funnel, letting it drip without pressure. Pressure increases the lees. Freezing is cleaner than using canned tomato, NOTE adding any pulp to the primary means lees, it is a fragile flesh.

Have fun, it is a nice wine.

Thank you so very much for the interesting suggestions.

I realize the tomato wine by itself will be nearer the color of Chardonnay, (which makes the "Guess what I am game I play with friends more fun) but your thought about blackberry made me think about the wild blackberries I have in the freezer for blackberry wine to be made in the next few weeks. I wonder if I could just throw a handful into the net bag with the tomatoes (or another bag) in this must. Either that, or use some of the blackberry wine to top off later.

My thought about the malic acid in the triple acid is this: Lalvin 71B has a metabolic pathway that converts up to 40% of malic acid into ethanol. So hopefully that minimizes it in the final wine. Next time, no triple blend so no malic.

Thanks again!