Risking carboy failure?

[JBP]

Starting a new thread after reading about glass carboy failures in this thread about headspace. Considering purchase history and price, I suspect most/all of my carboys are Mexican or other (not Italian). Based on previous threads/comments on WT, my full carboys are in carriers/crates and protected from impact. The recent thread had me looking more at the risk of a carboy full of wine spilling into the room - my basement winemaking area happens to have a very nice cherry floor as well as a nearby area rug (all installed before I began winemaking). While I would hate to lose 6 gallons of wine, I would really hate to make a mess of that part of the room.

Have just started looking into leakproof containers to put my carboys in and wondering what others use? My carboys with aging wine fit very nicely under a countertop and I would like to maintain that relatively small footprint. Could it be as simple as lining my milk crates with heavy duty plastic bags (which have a volume without carboy of ~6gallons)?

 

[ChuckD]

Could it be as simple as lining my milk crates with heavy duty plastic bags (which have a volume without carboy of ~6gallons)?

Consider that if the carboy breaks the glass will likely puncture the bag… how about a bucket or appropriately sized tote? I haven’t seen many totes that are heavy enough that you could lift them with a full carboy inside, but they could serve as a spill control basin.

 

[Hazelemere]

Chemically polyethylene is fine, i.e. won't change the flavour. I use polyethylene carboys after pressing grapes and switch to glass after the wines settle and clear especially after bentonite addition on the whites. Polyethylene breathes oxygen slowly so Its useless for long storage. If you line your milk crates without glass your wines won't store properly for more than 2-3 months. If you put heavy duty polyethylene inside glass stored in your milk crates you should be fine for long term storage.

 

[Raptor99]

I think that the biggest risk for breaking carboys comes when cleaning them (temp shock or bumping them), or when moving full carboys. It took me a few years, but now I have a setup in which I never need to lift or carry a full carboy. I use the All in One wine pump to rack in/out of carboys. If you need to pick up full carboys and move them from one room to another, the risk of breakage (and injury) is much greater.

I have Italian and Mexican glass carboys, all purchased used. When I purchase a used carboy, I inspect it very carefully for signs of small cracks or fractures. One time I found someone selling 4 Italian glass carboys at a great price. After inspection, I only purchased two of them, because the other two seemed to have small cracks in the bottoms. They might very well have been fine, but I didn't want to take the risk.

Keeping full carboys in containers is a good method to prevent damage to the flooring. Maybe plastic storage bins would work?

 

[Hazelemere]

I think that the biggest risk for breaking carboys comes when cleaning them (temp shock or bumping them), or when moving full carboys. It took me a few years, but now I have a setup in which I never need to lift or carry a full carboy. I use the All in One wine pump to rack in/out of carboys. If you need to pick up full carboys and move them from one room to another, the risk of breakage (and injury) is much greater.

I have Italian and Mexican glass carboys, all purchased used. When I purchase a used carboy, I inspect it very carefully for signs of small cracks or fractures. One time I found someone selling 4 Italian glass carboys at a great price. After inspection, I only purchased two of them, because the other two seemed to have small cracks in the bottoms. They might very well have been fine, but I didn't want to take the risk.

Keeping full carboys in containers is a good method to prevent damage to the flooring. Maybe plastic storage bins would work?

plastic breathes. glass doesn't. If you are worried about breaking glass then pump carboy to carboy so you aren't moving carboys when they are full. Moving them when they are empty should solve your issues with glass.

 

[Rice_Guy]

The rating of PET is close to zero. I would use the ones sold for beer or wine. I have some LDPE but mainly use it for freezing juice. After using one for fermentation I see that it would easily make a sherry like flavor.

In your basement I would look at an over wrap. This could be Home Depot contractor bags which survive taking broken 2x4 and metal out to the curb. It could be a five gallon cubitainer with the spout side cut off. It could be twenty gallon acid drums with an end cut off ,,, or some detergents use twenty gallon. And as a last choice a seven gallon fermentation bucket. Oh silo plastic for haylage or maybe above ground pool liner.

I have busted two carboys in twenty years. These have been from side impact in the basement. The glass mostly retained shape instead of shattering like a mirror.

 

[BPL]

Starting a new thread after reading about glass carboy failures in this thread about headspace. Considering purchase history and price, I suspect most/all of my carboys are Mexican or other (not Italian). Based on previous threads/comments on WT, my full carboys are in carriers/crates and protected from impact. The recent thread had me looking more at the risk of a carboy full of wine spilling into the room - my basement winemaking area happens to have a very nice cherry floor as well as a nearby area rug (all installed before I began winemaking). While I would hate to lose 6 gallons of wine, I would really hate to make a mess of that part of the room.

Have just started looking into leakproof containers to put my carboys in and wondering what others use? My carboys with aging wine fit very nicely under a countertop and I would like to maintain that relatively small footprint. Could it be as simple as lining my milk crates with heavy duty plastic bags (which have a volume without carboy of ~6gallons)?

I suggest solving the issues instead of creating another layer of potential problems.

The major issue is lifting a full 6 gallon glass container with a hand under the bottom for support. Possible injury. Second is using a handle on the neck. IMHO, that is an absolute NEVER! Third is a leak or failure in a living space. While not good, the mess/damage can be fixed.

In reverse order: Change wine making area. Solved...I moved from inside using the convenience of the kitchen and carpeted storage to a heated garage. 6 gallons of red wine will stain the concrete, but bleach will fix it.

I don't use handles on the neck of large carboys. Solved.... I always advise not to.

All my carboys are now fitted with straps/webbing to pick up/move. The material is a barrier to glass contact with other surfaces. Solved

I NEVER set a carboy down (empty or full) on any hard surface without a large towel underneath for cushion. Potential chips, points of failure. Solved.

Movement is minimized by planning where the wine/must will be handled. Full carboys are moved by straps/webbing or in a milk crate. Either moved vertically ~ 2ft or horizontally no more than 5 ft. Solved

All large carboys are stored in heavy milk crates. I found that putting a square rag in the bottom of the crate greatly minimizes shifting. Pinching fingers against the sides of crates...solved.

In the years of wine making reading numerous blogs and posts on several FB wine making groups, I have read of only one (1) carboy leaking before failure. The poster promptly pumped the wine out and saved the mess. He then moved to a heated garage.

IMHO a large bag will give a false sense of security. The bag may stop a leak but do nothing for a catastrophic failure.

Full disclosure, I have an extensive failure analysis background in heavy industry and tend to compartmentalize issues. It has saved my bacon numerous times.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I have my carboys in crates on a series of dog crate trays (though I don't have a dog!) - They have a lip about 1" high around the perimeter which is fine for catching drips and overflows during wine transfers, though if a carboy were to break in service I would still have a big mess on my hands. If you want more protection I would recommend a HDPE tray/box such as is used for secondary containment of hazardous chemicals in laboratories - though they would be considerably more expensive.

The only time I've broken a carboy is during cleaning.

 

[JBP]

Thanks to all for helpful replies. I do intend to continue using glass and appreciate the suggestions. It sounds like my risk is pretty minimal if I am not moving/handling full carboys? Being a female “of age”, my set-up relies on my pump and does not require moving full carboys (which are in crates or harnesses) more than shuffling them a few inches. And all carboy/crates sit on medium to heavy duty cardboard over the wood floor. Might add a layer of protection as suggested by a couple of responses.

As I sit here in zero degree weather in MN, changing venue would require both investing in heating my garage and a fight for space with hubby’s hobbies. Not likely to happen.

Thanks again, all.

 

[Greg1]

For those that move the carboys very little, what is your cleaning, rinse and sanitize process?

I started making wine in 2003 and took a 18 year hiatus. I have 3 glass carboys made in Mexico. I never knew until recently that not only of the danger of handling them but then also of the bottom cracking issues.

My current procedure is I clean using PBW and then rinse the carboy shacking it while holding it. Then I sanitize and repeat that process. Now I am extra careful moving it and still looking for a source to buy a heavy duty milk crate.

Any best practices on handling them during the cleaning and rinsing procedure is appreciated!

 

[Hazelemere]

I treat all of my glass or plastic carboys with bleach about 1/4 cup plus water to fill and leave them outside for a couple of days. If they look clean and smell clean i.e. no mold or vinegar odour I just rinse them with water and let them dry. I have been doing this for 55 years with no problems. If I bleach them then I rinse them with water until I can't smell bleach. I always water rinse carboys after they have been drained of wine.

 

[Hazelemere]

I treat all of my glass or plastic carboys with bleach about 1/4 cup plus water to fill and leave them outside for a couple of days. If they look clean and smell clean i.e. no mold or vinegar odour I just rinse them with water and let them dry. I have been doing this for 55 years with no problems. If I bleach them then I rinse them water until I can't smell bleach.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I appreciate the thermal shock concerns, the only carboy I’ve broken was by pouring hot beer wort into an empty carboy and then topping off with tap water.

I try to process carboys at as hot a temperature as my water tank provides. I rinse with a jet blaster attachment to the sink faucet. It gets all of the insides hot to the touch.

When sanitizing I auto siphon into the carboy, letting the liquid run down the neck. Then sloshing it around, and dumping. The warm, not hot, sanitizing solution gets all of the insides the same temperature.

For cleaning, I jet blast the carboy with hot water to get it warm. Then use my sump pump blaster to blast PBW and hot water into the carboy. Final rinse with hot water jet blast. Turn upside down to let it drain and cool to room temperature.

Other great advice is to put cushioning pads on concrete floors.

That’s all I’ve done for 30+ years.

 

[Hazelemere]

I appreciate the thermal shock concerns, the only carboy I’ve broken was by pouring hot beer wort into an empty carboy and then topping off with tap water.

I try to process carboys at as hot a temperature as my water tank provides. I rinse with a jet blaster attachment to the sink faucet. It gets all of the insides hot to the touch.

When sanitizing I auto siphon into the carboy, letting the liquid run down the neck. Then sloshing it around, and dumping. The warm, not hot, sanitizing solution gets all of the insides the same temperature.

For cleaning, I jet blast the carboy with hot water to get it warm. Then use my sump pump blaster to blast PBW and hot water into the carboy. Final rinse with hot water jet blast. Turn upside down to let it drain and cool to room temperature.

Other great advice is to put cushioning pads on concrete floors.

That’s all I’ve done for 30+ years.

"I rinse with a jet blaster attachment to the sink faucet. It gets all of the insides hot to the touch."

I do the same with a fitting attached to a bathroom shower hose attached to the wall next to a restaurant stainless steel double sink.

 

[Raptor99]

For those that move the carboys very little, what is your cleaning, rinse and sanitize process?

I have a large sink, so I move the empty carboy into the sink for washing. My sink is large enough to turn the carboy sideways and rotate it so that all the surfaces get washed and rinsed. I have a silicon mat that I use on the bottom of the sink to provide a soft surface. I fill the carboy about 1/4 of the way with soapy water, swish is around, then dump it out. If there is any residue on the inside of the carboy, I scrub it with a carboy brush. Then I rinse it 4-5 times to be sure that all of the soap is removed. I am careful to use room temperature water to avoid temperature shock to the glass. If you use PBW instead of soap, you could probably follow the same procedure.

I store the carboys clean and dry, with the opening covered with plastic wrap to keep dust out. When I am ready to use one, I use my AIO pump to fill the carboy about 1/4 of the way full with starsan, then I swish it around and pour it out back into my starsan container. Starsan is a contact sanitizer, so you don't need to fill it all the way up. You only need enough to swish it around to coat the surfaces. Actually, a quart of starsan would be enough as long as you are careful to swish it around enough to coat all the surfaces.

My larger carboys sit on the counter, so I only need to move them a few feet to/from the sink. The heaviest object that I need to move that way is a carboy about 1/4 full of starsan.

 

[David Violante]

My cleaning process is similar to Bob’s except the water isn’t as hot. I made a drill mounted carboy cleaner with a plastic rod and cloth, and a bottle washer with a sump pump and bucket. After air drying I store them with a piece of paper towel in the opening.

My sanitizing is similar to Raptor’s and I add the extra step of rinsing with an SO2 solution that I let sit in place with the bung I’m going to use for 10 mins before I empty then fill the carboy with wine.

@JBP You could also move to 3-gallon carboys and use two instead of one 5-gallon. You would just have to adjust to the volume difference. They are a bit lighter. I came across a couple 2-gallon carboys a few years ago but they’re hard to find.

 

[winemaker81]

In your basement I would look at an over wrap. This could be Home Depot contractor bags which survive taking broken 2x4 and metal out to the curb. It could be a five gallon cubitainer with the spout side cut off. It could be twenty gallon acid drums with an end cut off ,,, or some detergents use twenty gallon. And as a last choice a seven gallon fermentation bucket. Oh silo plastic for haylage or maybe above ground pool liner.

20 gallon Rubbermaid Brutes hold 19 and 23 liter carboys with room to spare, and have convenient handles. They also make great primary fermenters.

Change wine making area. Solved...I moved from inside using the convenience of the kitchen and carpeted storage to a heated garage. 6 gallons of red wine will stain the concrete, but bleach will fix it.

Unfortunately, this is not an option for a lot of our members. Until we constructed a cellar, I made wine in the kitchen and stored carboys in the dining room. My son has a 55 liter barrel in the corner of his living room. [Yes, the barrel is a great conversation piece!]

 

[BPL]

Any best practices on handling them during the cleaning and rinsing procedure is appreciated!

Reading through some of the comments deserve commenting for your (and others) consideration.

> When I first started making wine I collected repurposed bottles. Some had caked on residue that could not be rinsed out. I had way too many old bottles to use a hand brush. I found this product making "brushes" obsolete. One can be made DIY. Amazon carries them and other variations. I ordered mine directly from the company years ago. https://thirdcoastdesignworks.com/ .

> I suggest always using a soft pad under glass carboys when cleaning/laying down on the side. Some use silicone, some rubber, etc. I simply use dedicated bath towels that can be washed. I use a little bleach when washing the towels to minimize cross contamination. The terry cloth keeps splashing and drips to a minimum.

> Big box stores carry milk crates. I bought mine from Home Depot. Amazon has a selection also.

> Using bleach to sanitize wine surfaces is great. On the other hand, residual chloride/chlorine is very difficult to remove on a PPM level. A case to this point, chlorides kill yeast cells along with germs and bacteria. (proven during the covid epidemic). Chloride products are used in tap water in utilities all over the USA to help keep bacteria at bay. 1 tablespoon of bleach in a gallon of water is an effective sanitizer to spritz on desktops for classrooms (from a elementary school teacher). Why risk residual chlorine on wine making surfaces, when other products are made to be compatible with wine? Food for thought.

> Are there proven differences between sanitizing with hot water, versus warm water, versus cold water? Sure, warm water cleans better than cold water, but if using this train of thought, why not use steam? Steam is a cleaner, sanitizer, and sterilant. Again, food for thought. (BTW, I don't recommend using hot water or steam )

> My practices are 1) rinse all carboys out to remove visible residue. 2) 1 drop of Dawn dish soap with water and use the drill powered brush above until a good bit of foam is produced then ~20 to 30 seconds more on high speed. 3) Rinse no less than 5 times, usually 8 to 10 times until NO SOAP IS TASTED from water in the carboy. 4) drain and swish with about 1/4 cup of Star San. Leave the Star San in the container over night then swish again and dump. Leave any residue of Star San to dry. When ready to use the carboy again, repeat. I choose not to use PBW or other cleaners because of the possibility of slinging the solution on skin or in the eyes. Reading the MSDS's on products is recommended for enlightenment.

I developed the above practices from having a cheese making hobby years ago. Making cheese requires STERILE surfaces. There is a big difference between sterile and sanitized. Those experiences have been valuable when making wine.

There are many ways to achieve the same goals. My way is not perfect, but works for me.

All the best,

Barry

 

[BPL]

Unfortunately, this is not an option for a lot of our members.

I know. I did it because the area was available. I just had to re-arrange my hobbies.

 

[winemaker81]

Why risk residual chlorine on wine making surfaces, when other products are made to be compatible with wine? Food for thought.

Exactly. Professionals don't allow bleach in the winery, for good reason.

I find that Oxyclean works well with no problems.