Saignee Volume to Remove

[Kitchen]

Hello All, I have 4 lugs of Cab Sav and 1 lug of Merlot grapes coming in tomorrow for a blend I plan on starting this weekend. I would like to make a bold full bodied wine and plan on bleeding some of the juice off after 24 hours of cold soak (along with 24 more hours afterwards, and fermenting at 86F). I am wondering how much juice I should remove. I have read 10% is ideal, but 10% of what, total must or the amount of total finished wine? I was thinking about 1.5 gallons; would that be an appropriate amount?

Ideally, I would like to end up with (finished) 6 gallons of free run and 3 gallons of pressed wine from this batch, along with some Saignee Rose.

 

[stickman]

Draining 10% would normally mean 10% of the total estimated juice yield. Juice yield is always somewhat variable, but draining 1.5gal is probably reasonable.

 

[NorCal]

I also shoot for around 10-15% of the expected finished wine.

 

[Kitchen]

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I will drain 1.25 to 1.5 gallons of juice for a nice rose in the summer.

 

[Ajmassa]

Yep 10% seems like the safe range to not overdose on tannin they say. especially if using enzymes. First attempt was in May on a Malbec. Did about 15% equivalent and very happy so far with both resulting wines.
Planning about 10% saigneé this season on a cab.

one suggestion- Be careful on that 24hours. I pulled mine immediately after crushing, and was already plenty dark enough. Just the time it took to crush and press did the trick. Will be repeating that this season. If too light I can always easily darken, but lightening isn’t exactly an option.

 

[BernardSmith]

Yep 10% seems like the safe range to not overdose on tannin they say. especially if using enzymes. First attempt was in May on a Malbec. Did about 15% equivalent and very happy so far with both resulting wines.
Planning about 10% saigneé this season on a cab.

one suggestion- Be careful on that 24hours. I pulled mine immediately after crushing, and was already plenty dark enough. Just the time it took to crush and press did the trick. Will be repeating that this season. If too light I can always easily darken, but lightening isn’t exactly an option.

What is the issue with the color? If the saignee is too dark does that mean that it has already extracted too much of the tannins and other compounds from the skins and seeds that you are trying to heap onto the must remaining after you have removed the 10- 15%?

 

[Ajmassa]

What is the issue with the color? If the saignee is too dark does that mean that it has already extracted too much of the tannins and other compounds from the skins and seeds that you are trying to heap onto the must remaining after you have removed the 10- 15%?

No no. Just meant about the resulting rosé. Saigneé for dual purpose- and to make sure the light rosé color desired is achieved. Some grapes will darken that juice up a lot quicker than others.

 

[David Violante]

I’m also looking to do a Saigneé on my next batch. I’ve been reading a lot here about it in a lot of areas, especially your thread @Ajmassa. What a great experience! Here’s my question... we’re supposed to pull off ~10% of the juice (of what the final amount we expect to be) but when in the process do we do that? I’ve read that it’s the free run immediately after crushing or even taking 10% of the must with skins and pressing that for the juice then returning the skins. Is there a hard fast rule or are these just a variety of methods that make Saigneé unique? ...I have a feeling I’ve answered my own question here... LOL

 

[cmason1957]

You pretty much answered your own question. Crush, remove about 10% of your expected final volume, either by pressing some or by juice removal.

 

[David Violante]

Thank you... yup... as I was writing it I thought the same thing. I guess sometimes its good to just write it out.

 

[Kitchen]

I did just juice removal without any pressing, and this year did several Soigné Rosés, allowing each to sit on the skins for about 18 hours. Overall, I do not like store bought Rosés since I find them to be lacking in flavor with too much acid. Allowing them to sit longer lets the flavor build up and/or change.

Insofar as amount, I have read you can get as high as 30% of total juice volume, depending on what you are go for in the main wine. I did two 180 lb batches (plus three 80 lb batched this year), one in September and another mid-October, both yielding around 13 gallons total. For the first, I pulled off about 10% of juice, so around 1.25 gallons (further diluted to 1.5 with water). The Rosé as really nice, but the main wine was a little under in body then what I was going for. A crowd pleaser for sure, but not what I would call optimal.

The second I pulled off about 16%, around 1.75 gallons, and produced a fuller bodied main wine and a more intense flavor. I did also allow this one to sit on the skins and seeds for 32 days, whereas the other was pressed at day 10, which certainly had an effect.

 

[David Violante]

Very interesting... I’ll have to try a few methods to see what we like (no skin time, some skin time, different percentages...) much in the same way of first run, pressed, yeast selection, cold soak or not, etc...

The variety of variables in winemaking can be as daunting as they are fascinating.

Thank you for sharing!

 

[CDrew]

I’m also looking to do a Saigneé on my next batch. I’ve been reading a lot here about it in a lot of areas, especially your thread @Ajmassa. What a great experience! Here’s my question... we’re supposed to pull off ~10% of the juice (of what the final amount we expect to be) but when in the process do we do that? I’ve read that it’s the free run immediately after crushing or even taking 10% of the must with skins and pressing that for the juice then returning the skins. Is there a hard fast rule or are these just a variety of methods that make Saigneé unique? ...I have a feeling I’ve answered my own question here... LOL

No rules, so you need to do some experiments!

In 2019 I tried the press the skins and toss the skins back into the main ferment. That's kind of a pain, and for 2020 I just pressed and tossed the skins out. For 2021, I want to do a true saignée.

It would be fun though, to focus on the main wine, and see if the saignée method really changes it all that much. And how much juice would you need to remove to notice? 10%-30% "bleeding" is quoted-I'll bet wineries decide based on how much they think they can sell (and other factors)!

One other thing to consider, is watering back. If your grapes come in at 24-26 brix, you'd probably want to water back to say 21-22 brix with acidulated water. Just to keep the Rosé light and refreshing.

And then you need to decide about MLF or not. If not, then you will need to do something to prevent it, so either high doses of sulfites or lysozyme, unless you have the capability to sterile filter.

 

[Ajmassa]

I’m also looking to do a Saigneé on my next batch. I’ve been reading a lot here about it in a lot of areas, especially your thread @Ajmassa. What a great experience! Here’s my question... we’re supposed to pull off ~10% of the juice (of what the final amount we expect to be) but when in the process do we do that? I’ve read that it’s the free run immediately after crushing or even taking 10% of the must with skins and pressing that for the juice then returning the skins. Is there a hard fast rule or are these just a variety of methods that make Saigneé unique? ...I have a feeling I’ve answered my own question here... LOL

you make the rules! As long as it’s pink it’s a rosé. They only say 10-15% saigneé so the juice to skins ratio in the base wine isn’t crazy and improves the wine not overdosing on tannin. Timing is dependent on the grapes too. Some grapes take longer than others to extract some color. My logic to doing right away is that you can always add some back in later to darken but cannot remove to lighten.
I’ve now done 3 rosé wines and each one done differently 1st one was a WineExpert kit. A white Sauv Blanc base with a red pack. Was delicious.
2nd was traditional saigneé style. pressed a portion directly after crushing. Skins back into main wine.
3rd was saigneé style but no pressing. Just post-crush straining.

Read here recently a guy saved his red press pomace cake, then added it to a bucket of white juice to achieve the pink/blush/rosé look. I mean, you could even just take finished white wine, dump in some finished red wine until desired color- and it’s a rosé.
Definitely fun wines to make & experiment with. And when it’s saigneé style you are improving the main wine and gaining a fun early drinking summer wine as a byproduct. Win/win

And then you need to decide about MLF or not. If not, then you will need to do something to prevent it, so either high doses of sulfites or lysozyme, unless you have the capability to sterile filter.

Unless you’re lazy, then the wine makes the decision for you!

 

[NorCal]

My (CF, Merlot, Grenache) rose is a bit on the light side. I took a sample and put in the fridge to see if I’ll need to cold stabilize, which I do. I had to chuckle at @CDrew remark, as the two carboys of Rose went through spontaneous mlf on their own.

 

[David Violante]

Looks like there's a lot to do next year!

@CDrew Acidulated water is just balanced so that the pH is lower by using something like an acid blend? How do you calculate this ahead of time or do you just add the water and then correct for acidity to 3.4?

I’ve now done 3 rosé wines and each one done differently 1st one was a WineExpert kit. A white Sauv Blanc base with a red pack. Was delicious.
2nd was traditional saigneé style. pressed a portion directly after crushing. Skins back into main wine.
3rd was saigneé style but no pressing. Just post-crush straining.

It sounds like I'm going to be doing some experimentation with grape types. Thank you for relating your experiences, they were invaluable to me in understanding how to do this, and quite fun to read as well. I've enjoyed following them and your ideas and questions about how to do what.

I took a sample and put in the fridge to see if I’ll need to cold stabilize, which I do.

How do you know if it needed cold stabalization - was that for pH or cloudiness? I've put samples in the fridge to clear a bit better (blackberry-concord). By the way I love the artwork on your corks.

 

[CDrew]

Looks like there's a lot to do next year!

@CDrew Acidulated water is just balanced so that the pH is lower by using something like an acid blend? How do you calculate this ahead of time or do you just add the water and then correct for acidity to 3.4?

Just use Tartaric acid. Not acid blend.

I took the simplistic view that the grape juice had 7gm/L of TA when I tested it and I didn't want to dilute the acid and so I made up 4L of water with 28 gm of Tartaric Acid in it and diluted the juice down to 21 brix. Worked like a charm and lightened the body without changing the nature of it.

 

[NorCal]

How do you know if it needed cold stabalization - was that for pH or cloudiness? I've put samples in the fridge to clear a bit better (blackberry-concord). By the way I love the artwork on your corks.

If you zoom in on the pic, you will see tartaric crystals on the bottom. Yea bit the bullet with the $100 art charge to have the logo printed on the cork. I’m thinking my whites and roses will not have a cap on them, so that will be some of the payback.

 

[David Violante]

@CDrew gotcha... makes sense. I’m guessing there would be some kind of shock to the juice if the water wasn’t acidulated and had to be readjusted after addition.

@NorCal Ahhhhh I see them now... so do you put whole carboys in the fridge or is there some kind of cooling system? $100 doesn’t seem too bad~ they look great too!

 

[NorCal]

@NorCal Ahhhhh I see them now... so do you put whole carboys in the fridge or is there some kind of cooling system? $100 doesn’t seem too bad~ they look great too!

I remove the drawers and put the whole carboy in there.

Here is a pic of the tartrate fallout in the Viognier, much clearer.