Sanitation practices

[wineview]

I am very conscious about the importance of working clean. At times I wonder if I am going overboard. For example, if you are making a yeast starter, do you sanitize the measuring spoon that touches the nutrient or sugar added to the starter? What about the measuring cup for the water or whisk to stir in the yeast and nutrients. I have, and am wondering if I really need to be that careful.
Love to hear your thoughts and methods.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I am very conscious about the importance of working clean. At times I wonder if I am going overboard. For example, if you are making a yeast starter, do you sanitize the measuring spoon that touches the nutrient or sugar added to the starter? What about the measuring cup for the water or whisk to stir in the yeast and nutrients. I have, and am wondering if I really need to be that careful.
Love to hear your thoughts and methods.

In my opinion, and in very simple terms, you can divide winemaking into pre-fermentation and post-fermentation. I boil my yeast starter solution with sugar in it, partly to sanitize but also get the sugar fully dissolved, then add nutrient. When the starter gets to 100F I add the yeast. None of the tools I use gets sanitized, just a rinse with clean water, if that.

Punch down tools get sanitized, partly because I still have the sanitizer solution available when sanitizing the fermentation bucket. After that solution gets old, I just rinse tools in water.

As the must gets closer to wine and not must anymore, it’s post-fermentation. Everything gets sanitized. Exceptions are the measuring spoons for tannins, Kmeta, oak cubes. Equipment like auto siphons, tubing, hydrometer, airlocks all get sanitized. My feeling is that the Kmeta and dissolved CO2 help keep any bacteria at bay.

 

[wineview]

I use Go Ferm. Doesn’t the boiling water kill the nutrients?

 

[Ohio Bob]

I don’t think boiling kills GoFerm, but the point is it’s not necessary to boil to sanitize, or sanitize at all pre-fermentation. As always, YMMV.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I am an example of a minimal approach. If I look at grandpa recipes from the 1930s or the New Settlement cook book 1905 they basically say mix things and natural yeast will take over. Looking at wine from a microbiology point of view it is a preservative system. The pH and high sugar are selective agents for yeast. In contrast a beer at pH 4.5 and 1.050 gravity is not as selective, therefore boiling is worth while.
When I look at factory rules, we use a lot of stainless with only cleaning it with soap water and a spray gun. If I look at micro lab rules, we will retort clean equipment for 15 minutes at 15 psig / 130C wrapped in aluminum foil to prevent accidental growth. ie your home treatment will not actually sterilize the tools you are using, if I culture the tool there is a good chance i will pick up some contaminating organisms.

GoFerm is a source of nitrogen compounds and vitamins. The nitrogen is stable at retort temperatures 130C, this is way above what you can do at home. I haven't seen anything about vitamin content at 100C for yeast culture. Using food as a comparison, there is some loss of vitamins with heating. Loss depends upon which vitamin you are interested in. ,,, OK would I worry about this, not really, ,,, the reason is that I have sterilized yeast selective media at 130C and we culture yeast. I would guess that vitamins aren't as limiting for culture as the nitrogen compounds.

All in all boiling doesn't hurt. It will activate spore forming bacteria, but the selective pressures of pH 3.5 will prevent growth, ,,, and if one boiled 10 minutes in acid water under pH 4.0 the tools and media will be commercially sterile.

 

[Ted Brumleve]

I help design distilleries until I retire in just ten more days. Some master distillers are absolutely fanatical about cleanliness; some not so much. This is a personal preference issue. But you cannot go overboard with sanitation awareness. Remember that 200 years ago, the folks in France knew nothing other than to clean everything as best as possible, and they made great wine from superior grapes. But I'm sure they made some bad batches too.

 

[Wineart]

In my opinion, and in very simple terms, you can divide winemaking into pre-fermentation and post-fermentation. I boil my yeast starter solution with sugar in it, partly to sanitize but also get the sugar fully dissolved, then add nutrient. When the starter gets to 100F I add the yeast. None of the tools I use gets sanitized, just a rinse with clean water, if that.

Punch down tools get sanitized, partly because I still have the sanitizer solution available when sanitizing the fermentation bucket. After that solution gets old, I just rinse tools in water.

As the must gets closer to wine and not must anymore, it’s post-fermentation. Everything gets sanitized. Exceptions are the measuring spoons for tannins, Kmeta, oak cubes. Equipment like auto siphons, tubing, hydrometer, airlocks all get sanitized. My feeling is that the Kmeta and dissolved CO2 help keep any bacteria at bay.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[winemaker81]

For example, if you are making a yeast starter, do you sanitize the measuring spoon that touches the nutrient or sugar added to the starter?

Mostly.

My measuring spoons and cups are stainless steel or glass. They are cleaned and dried upright after rinsing with hot tap water, and dry in a matter of an hour or so. If they have been used in the previous day or two, I may not sanitize unless I'm doing other items.

Items made of other materials, especially primary and secondary containers that spend weeks or months between usage? This is a totally different situation. I treat with K-meta solution prior to usage. Why the difference?

Plastic doesn't dry as fast as steel or glass, so it may take days to fully dry. Additionally, plastics get scratched and supposedly "stuff" can grow in the scratches, so sanitizing makes sense.

ALL items get cleaned immediately after a session. I leave nothing dirty, and if I see anything odd, an item gets cleaned again. Nothing gets put away if it's still wet. From reading numerous sources (not all wine-related), it appears that proper cleaning and drying is 90% of sanitizing. Use of a sanitizing agent (e.g., K-meta solution or Star San) prior to usage is an extra measure to ensure sanitization.

Keep in mind that "sanitizing" in winemaking means reducing the amount of microorganisms to below a threshold where they do not pose a threat to the wine. We are not sterilizing, as in removing 100% of all microorganisms. For home winemakers, sterilization is not feasible, nor is it necessary.

As David (@Rice_Guy) often says, wine is a preservation system. The relatively high ABV and acid, and low pH is a hostile environment for most adverse microorganisms, so once fermentation surpasses 5% ABV (IIRC), the danger of most microorganisms is greatly reduced.

Note that risk tolerance is individual. Everyone should do what they consider correct.

 

[BPL]

I use Go Ferm. Doesn’t the boiling water kill the nutrients?

To my knowledge, GoFerm is not used with boiling water.

GoFerm Evolution max temperature is ~110*F. It's that high to help dissolve the hydration material.

The latest GoFerm is GF Sterol Flash. It is a hydration nutrient, not a yeast "starter", and works just fine at ambient temperature.

Why use boiling water with GoFerm?

 

[wineview]

I believe I misread Ohio Bob’s post. I thought he said he put nutrients into boiling water. My mistake.

 

[Rice_Guy]

An interesting change, the federal committee which creates the rules companies have to follow for responding to pathogens was down sized two days ago, March 10th. These are the pHd’s who helped us through the lysteria in baby formula, or salmonella at Peanut corporation of America last year.

,,, (@Rice_Guy) often says, wine is a preservation system. The relatively high ABV and acid, and low pH is a hostile environment for most adverse microorganisms, so once fermentation surpasses 5% ABV (IIRC), the danger of most microorganisms is greatly reduced.
Note that risk tolerance is individual. Everyone should do what they consider correct.

 

[mainshipfred]

Below is a response I had to a similar post. I never was around or involved when they treated SS tanks so it may be possible they might be sanitized to a certain degree.

I'm not at all opposed to cleanliness though I feel as home winemakers we go overboard. If you ever get the opportunity to help with a commercial production you should, it's an eye opening experience. All the larger equipment like crusher, destemmers, bladder presses, t-bin tanks, punch down tools, etc. are simply rinsed with water. Covers are placed on the fermenting vessels in an attempt to stop the fruit flies but it's not perfect. The only thing I do see them sanitizing are the pumps and hoses.

Considering they have a lot more to lose with larger quantities you would think if it was necessary they would go to further extremes.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I'm not at all opposed to cleanliness though I feel as home winemakers we go overboard.

I think it’s important to distinguish between sanitation and cleanliness. I probably do go overboard on cleanliness and less on sanitation for fermentation activities. Post fermentation requires both, I sanitize, use, and then clean all equipment used. So when I go to use it I the future, I know it’s clean. How you store, or for that matter how commercial wineries store their equipment, probably plays a role in keeping general cleanliness to an acceptable level.

 

[distancerunner]

Below is a response I had to a similar post. I never was around or involved when they treated SS tanks so it may be possible they might be sanitized to a certain degree.

I'm not at all opposed to cleanliness though I feel as home winemakers we go overboard. If you ever get the opportunity to help with a commercial production you should, it's an eye opening experience. All the larger equipment like crusher, destemmers, bladder presses, t-bin tanks, punch down tools, etc. are simply rinsed with water. Covers are placed on the fermenting vessels in an attempt to stop the fruit flies but it's not perfect. The only thing I do see them sanitizing are the pumps and hoses.

Considering they have a lot more to lose with larger quantities you would think if it was necessary they would go to further extremes.

You beat me to it.

There are some commercial wineries that are so clean you could eat off the floor. There are others that you pick and choose where your foot lands next. Yet, either can and do make good wines.

One observation is that when I've toured these facilities the floors are almost always wet. Seems they rinse every problem down the drain.

The cleanliness of the average winery that I've seen will make many hobbyists cringe. Home winemakers tend to go overboard with sanitation compared to most commercial producers. There's nothing wrong with that. If you have the energy and the time to sanitize everything, go for it.

As for us, we clean and rinse our equipment after use and let it air dry. We rinse and sanitize before using it again. We clean up the spills and drips when they occur. The floor gets swept periodically.

If there was one thing that I could wish for in the next wine cellar it would be for full length floor drains.