Second Year of Plantation Starting. How to prune?? Help please!

[daniyalsm]

Hello everyone!

So I am a newbie at grape farming. I started a small 1.5 acre plantation at my farm last year. (This thread http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=581553#post581553)

I planted one year old table grape plants in end of February 2015. I let them grow without any training in order to maximize root growth.

Now it's pruning season and I have some varieties that require cane pruning (Thompson) and some that require spur pruning (Flame Seedless).

The Thompson plants grew much more than other varieties such as Flame Seedless and King Ruby.

I am not quite sure on how to go about the pruning. The Y posts I have have two holes for top wires that are about 6.5 feet from the ground. The wires will be inserted very soon.

Some questions that I have:

1. For both types of pruning, does the head of the trunk need to go as high as where the top wires will be (around 6.5 feet)?

2. How do I prune? What do I leave on and what do I prune off? Also for some plants some shoots are much longer than the main trunk. Is there a way I can make the shoot the trunk, so that I don't have to wait another growing season for the trunk to reach the top wires?

3. Please help me on how to prune now. I will be very grateful for any help and advice. Thanks


Picture of Y posts taken from earlier in the growing season

One of the shoots (the one creeping along the ground passing the green weeds) is so much longer than the main trunk. This is a Thompson I believe.

Weaker growth of Flame Seedless. Not sure how to prune

Some prunings from a massively overgrown Flame Seedless vine (not part of main plantation). Some shoots had green interior while others had a white orange dead look. What is normal? Or are both fine and alive?

 

[Pat57]

I would cut them off with 2-3 buds above the ground and get them trained this year on a stake/pole so they go straight up to the wires. they look a bit twisted and sprawling to train now ?

Pat

 

[daniyalsm]

Oh my! I hope I do not have to cut everything and go back to year 1...

Also please let me know if the following types of wires will work fine as line wires.

These samples are 2.5mm steel core covered by 2.5mm pvc and 3mm steel core covered by 2mm pvc.

 

[daniyalsm]

No one?.........

 

[grapeman]

There are many ways to go about pruning and training your vines. Like you said you didn't prune last year to let the vine grow good roots. That is good. The second year you want to form the trunk. This takes the whole second season. While it is painful, it is best to prune the vine back to several buds. That puts the stored energy of the roots into just a few shoots and gives a stronger response in the second year. It will grow vigorously. Like alluded to before, use some sort of stake to train the trunk to as it grows to keep it straight. Let it grow up to the top wire and let it bend over to the wire. After it has grown a few feet and gets to be the size of a pencil or so and if you still have plenty of growing season left, then you can cut the vine just below the wire. Let the upper two or three shoots that form below the cut grow and after they get a few feet long select the two that are best and tie them to the wire. These will become the cordons for spur pruning. Keep most of the lower shoots pruned off leaving mostly just the trunk and later the shoots for the cordons.

This seems harsh but will lead to a more vigorous healthier vine for the future. They will likely be larger by pruning back to a few buds than if you try to form trunks out of small shoots.

As far as wire, what you show is a braided cable which will stretch and isn't all that string. What you want is 12.5 guage high tensile wire. It comes in a spool about 4000 feet and only cost around $100 US. You also want to use a spinning jenny to apply it to keep the coil from tangling and ruining the whole spool. Those are about $50 and up a bit.

I hope this is a bit of help to get you started and is not intended to be an all inclusive set of instructions- only a loose guide.

 

[daniyalsm]

@pat57 thank you for your help

@grapeman thank you very much for the detailed info. It seems I will be cutting almost everything then. Also you might not have noticed, but the plant row is offset about 1 foot from the post row (Honestly I do not know why). Will this be a cause for concern, since I won't be able to grow 90 degrees straight trunks.

Also I have to follow the same method this year for the cane pruned varieties right?

Also there is only 1 hole per arm in the 6.5 feet tall Y posts. I can do something like a GDC with this setup right? Or do I need to make more holes in the arms.

I will try to not bother you much this year, since you have told me what to do for now, but I will be asking a few more questions later in the year. Thanks!!

 

[grapeman]

For the cane pruned varieties do the same things to them as the others up to the point of forming the cordons. They get headed just below the top wire (which should be around the point of the Y). Let all the shoots grow within 6-12 inches of that. They become the canes you select for growing next year. More on that later.

 

[daniyalsm]

@grapeman So I started pruning today. The Thompson variety had much better growth. I removed all side canes and only left one straight one (trunk). Length varied from 12-30 inches depending on apparent health of plant.

The Flame seedless ones were generally much weaker. Those had weak growth and had thin canes growing from almost each bud. Now I might have pruned some of those plants all the way to the bud (including the bud) from where the tiny canes were attached to the main trunk. I later realized that I might have cut all the buds on some plants. They were left with just a straight trunk about 12 inches long with cut buds. Are those plants gone? Thankfully I didn't do this to most, and majority had more than 2-3 buds left.

Also please take a look at the following two photos.

When I cut this shoot, there was some blackened spots in it. Is this plant diseased and dying?

This Flame Seedless plant was bigger than many plants, however it looked very dry, and snapped when I bent it. Is this also dead?

Thanks for your time!

 

[havlikn]

The second photo doesn't appear to show any green tissue. There should be green tissue present if the portion is still alive. I would try cutting down a little ways on the vine and see if you notice green

 

[Johny99]

If it is alive you should see green. I agree prune it down. As for the ones you cut down and don't see or pinched off the buds, don't despair yet. Each but is actually three. Often a tendril will form. A healthy vine is very resilient and should grow, even if it comes up from the root stock, assuming your vines are own rooted. If they are grafted and come out below the graft, pinch it off and hope for one above, redraft it, or pull it and start over (sorry).

 

[daniyalsm]

Thanks for the help! Right now it seems all my grapes are dead after the pruning, but I hope not. Also can you please comment on the first photo in post #8. any clue what that black mass inside the cut area is?

Also I have a bad termite (and some other insects) infestation in the field (underground) and have been told that a lot of seemingly healthy plants might already be dead from underneath...

I have been told to use Chlorpyrifos (which might be banned in the U.S). Can someone please shed light on how dangerous termites are to grapes and what the best thing to do now is. Thank you.

@grapeman
@havlikn
@johny99

 

[grapeman]

I would not worry about the vine in post 8. It looks like the damage was done last year from some type of vine borer and you just happened to prune where it had bored in the vine. It could also have been just some damage done to the outside of the shoot and it made that one spot die.

Why do you think all the vines are dead after pruning? It is easy to worry over them, but they should grow once the daytime temps get warm enough.

Has a termite infestation been verified there? Here is part of an article I found reading on termites in grapes. It may apply in you situation and environment.

In newly developed vineyards in southern desert regions, surface foraging by Heterotermes aureus has been observed in which young vines were killed. Heavy irrigation practices in desert areas appeared, however, to deter continued attack of established vines. Clearing of native woods, cacti, and other cellulose debris before planting may be advisable in preparing new vineyards.
Control is a matter of prevention. In newly established vineyards remove all cellulose and wood debris to help eliminate food sources. Take care to avoid scarring vines with cultivating tools. Saw cuts 12 inches or more aboveground are rarely a point of entry for termites, unless the heartwood is softened by woodrot fungi or reduced by branch or twig borers. Some surface-foraging termites, such as Heterotermes, can gain access to the vines at these points.

I make it a point of not speaking about specific chemicals I have no experience with. Verify you have the problem and then try to find a chemical that is label approved for your location.

 

[berrycrush]

Just curious, how much does it cost you for each of those concrete Y-shaped post?

 

[daniyalsm]

thanks you very much @grapeman

Does it mean that I should not let the cuttings of the vines stay in the field for decomposition?

Also they seem dead because they are dry and this is the first time I have pruned them. Plus workers told me about termites.. Hopefully they are not dead.

@berrycrush I believe they were about $8-10 per post. They are 9-10 feet tall or something. 3 feet underground and 7 above.

 

[grapeman]

You should get in the habit of getting rid of the cuttings after pruning. Some people burn them while others just remove from the vineyard. Either way you remove them to help aid in disease prevention as they can be a source of disease inoculum. In your case if you have termites getting rid of the prunings helps get rid of a source of food for them.

 

[Pat57]

thanks you very much @grapeman

Does it mean that I should not let the cuttings of the vines stay in the field for decomposition?

Also they seem dead because they are dry and this is the first time I have pruned them. Plus workers told me about termites.. Hopefully they are not dead.

@berrycrush I believe they were about $8-10 per post. They are 9-10 feet tall or something. 3 feet underground and 7 above.

Those cement Y posts would cost at least $100 here, probably more. Even if you made a form for them and poured them yourself, the concrete alone would probably be about $25 for each one. They must weigh a couple hundred pounds each?

 

[daniyalsm]

Ok thanks for letting me know grapeman! Highly appreciated.

Now I am going to put some liquid fertilizer that was recommended to me by the person who sold me the grapes. It is 40% Potash and 50% sulphur. Is it good for grapes?

@pat57 Haha wow. Yea they are pretty heavy, however I do not know the exact weight, as I was not there when they were placed in the ground.
Lots of stuff is cheap here, but then again it sells for much cheaper too.

However some stuff is really expensive. For example a base level Toyota Camry (2.4L) costs in excess of US$ 100,000 here in Pakistan.

 

[daniyalsm]

@grapeman Please have a look and comment. I pruned the grapes as you had told (hopefully did it right). Now they have started sprouting.
Can you please let me know which shoot I should train to go up to the top wire. Or is it too early to choose right now? Also what about the shoots growing at the base and lower parts. Should I let them grow unchecked? I plan to have two steel wires going through the top two holes on the Y posts. The plant spacing is 5 feet within row and 10 feet between row. Can you let me know whether configuration A would be better or whether configuration B would be better.

Configuration A:

Configuration B:

Also if you have any other suggestions, please let me know. It would be highly appreciated

The images are in no particular order. Everyone is welcome to comment

 

[grapeman]

I can't comment much at this point about which to leave for the trunk. I am trying to see the pictures, but they are too small to see with my eyes right now and I don't have time to import and enlarge them. As far as the configuration to use, either one will do. If the vine is less vigorous the one with alternating sides might do better and if the vines are really vigorous, the four cordons would help control the vigor. I will check your pictures again over the next few days to see if they get larger. They have before for some reason so they may again. You have a while to figure out what to do. If I don't respond just bump the thread so I see it again.

 

[garymc]

One of the nice things about growing grapes is all the choices you get to make.