SECONDARY ODD SEPERATION?

[Applewineguy]

So racked my raspberry, apple, honey wine tonight and then once in carboys gave it a quick whip with the degassing tool before airlocking them. Now after a short while I'm seeing this odd separation in each of the carboys? Just curious what this is all about. Never made raspberry honey wine before so bit of a new experience in how the fruit behaves through the process.

 

[David Violante]

It looks like it’s just clearing. It looks great!

I would add some of the wine from your gallon container into the 3 and 5 gallon containers to reduce their headspace. What’s left can go into a smaller container with an airlock like a juice bottle or something. I have a bunch of different volumes for just such an occasion. When you rack off the gross lees you can add that volume back in to keep it all topped off. At least up to the neck.

It might be a little harder if it’s still foamy though. That will all subside and clear nicely.

 

[winemaker81]

The wine looks like Jello 1-2-3!

I agree with David, that's perfectly normal clearing.

I disagree about topping up now. If that's foam at the top, you don't want those containers fuller, else you'll experience the mini-volcano effect. While wine is still fermenting and during the first few weeks post-fermentation, enough CO2 is being expelled that headspace is not a problem.

What is the current SG? If fermentation is complete, the wine can rest a few weeks while the gross lees drops, then rack off the lees and consolidate containers. My guesstimate is that you'll fill the large carboy plus two 4 liter jugs, so you'll need to plan for that.

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

Your two smaller containers have a lot of gross lees in them. looks like foam on top from active fermentation or maybe just excess gas. Some SG readings would help. If it’s fruit wine, I would personally carefully rack again and exclude as much lees as possible. A fine strainer would help. You won’t need all those carboys, I’m thinking after carefull racking it will all fit in the large carboy with a little left for topping off. It does look like it will clear nicely though.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I sit in Bryan’s camp. Foam indicates you are actively gassing. While putting out gas the fermentation is safe. While putting out gas you will not get a good separation. The gas will tend to keep small particles mixed into suspension. You could copy a kit with bentonite and speed the settling process.

 

[winemaker81]

You won’t need all those carboys, I’m thinking after carefull racking it will all fit in the large carboy with a little left for topping off. It does look like it will clear nicely though.

Your estimate on the final volume may be correct, although I'd much rather have too many containers than too few.

 

[David Violante]

I disagree about topping up now. If that's foam at the top, you don't want those containers fuller, else you'll experience the mini-volcano effect. While wine is still fermenting and during the first few weeks post-fermentation, enough CO2 is being expelled that headspace is not a problem.

Yes indeed! I should have clarified my point about being "foamy still". Definitely follow the above advice. No-one needs a volcano...!

 

[Applewineguy]

I did leave the space due to it being 1.010 and still slowly fermenting. Also wanted room for some degassing and knew there would be gassing to protect things. It will of course shrink down in volume during my next racking. It was fermenting too slow in the final stages to be safe in the big ferment pail so moved to glass. The appearance has changed dramatically and I have a nice little bit of settlement on the bottom now of each carboy. I'll leave it for a little while yet and then rack again. Airlocks are all bubbling still decently active and some bubbles rising to the surface of each one so let it do its thing before wasting time and wine racking again. I'm in no rush to have it clear out as I'm playing the patient game on this batch. I appreciate all your recommendations and input!

I do worry about high acid content and right now the taste is not great. It's quite strong in alcohol taste and the co2 is producing a certain bite on the tongue that of course not fond of. I do certainly worry I may have watered down too much and may have lost a lot of my desired flavor but we will see how it ages. I do plan on cold crashing later to remove some of the tartaric acid.

 

[winechef]

Not sure why you'd add apple to raspberry, it's a perfect flavor on its own. raspberry cranberry maybe to give some tannins.

why would you degass if it's still fermenting? also don't taste it until after racking. you'll just mislead your expectations. probably will be fine. add some pectin enzymes after it finishes fermenting. then rack it. should be fine

 

[Applewineguy]

Not sure why you'd add apple to raspberry, it's a perfect flavor on its own. raspberry cranberry maybe to give some tannins.

why would you degass if it's still fermenting? also don't taste it until after racking. you'll just mislead your expectations. probably will be fine. add some pectin enzymes after it finishes fermenting. then rack it. should be fine

Lol because that is what wine making is about. Creating and trying ideas. Lol. Sorry but I actually create my own recipes and make my own stuff right from scratch. Also apple raspberry has been done MANY times. The apple content is actually so minimal it probably won't even be noticeable.

It was a partial degas. Helps dramatically with clearing and settling things out. Already plenty of pectic enzyme in the batch.

 

[winemaker81]

I do worry about high acid content and right now the taste is not great.

I agree with @winechef, tasting during fermentation doesn't tell you much of value. Aroma, flavor, acid, tannin, etc. is changing daily. I've been making wine long enough that I can get an idea of how a wine is doing post-fermentation, but during? Other than the must being ok (no H2S, bacteria, etc.) tasting doesn't give me useful information.

Sorry but I actually create my own recipes and make my own stuff right from scratch.

It was a partial degas. Helps dramatically with clearing and settling things out. Already plenty of pectic enzyme in the batch.

During fermentation we don't want things to settle out. Spoilage organisms typically grow in the lees, not the must/wine, so having things in suspension during fermentation is actually good. Once fermentation is done, then a rapid clearing of gross lees is good.

 

[Applewineguy]

I agree with @winechef, tasting during fermentation doesn't tell you much of value. Aroma, flavor, acid, tannin, etc. is changing daily. I've been making wine long enough that I can get an idea of how a wine is doing post-fermentation, but during? Other than the must being ok (no H2S, bacteria, etc.) tasting doesn't give me useful information.





During fermentation we don't want things to settle out. Spoilage organisms typically grow in the lees, not the must/wine, so having things in suspension during fermentation is actually good. Once fermentation is done, then a rapid clearing of gross lees is good.

Isn't that what campden tablets are for (the spoilage) I've always had settle out in secondary ferm and never had an issue with spoilage organisms and I've had wine where restaurant owners have asked to have it in their bars? I rack every month or two or when the Lee's get to about a inch high in the bottom. Not saying you're wrong by any means, just that I've never run into that issue before.

 

[winemaker81]

Isn't that what campden tablets are for (the spoilage) I've always had settle out in secondary ferm and never had an issue with spoilage organisms and I've had wine where restaurant owners have asked to have it in their bars? I rack every month or two or when the Lee's get to about a inch high in the bottom. Not saying you're wrong by any means, just that I've never run into that issue before.

I've read numerous theories about gross lees, including one source that said gross lees (fruit solids) decomposes immediately and wine should be racked daily during fermentation until all all lees are gone. IMO that POV is simply ridiculous, and personal experience proves it out. On the other end of that scale, I've left wine on the gross lees for a couple of months and it developed off flavors that never went away. The best choice is in between these two extremes.

More plausible sources state that gross lees drops within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. I generally leave the wine for 1 to 3 weeks, which ensures the gross lees is down, then I rack. Anything that falls after that is fine lees (yeast hulls).

There is no need to rack off the fine lees. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage", which are techniques for using the fine lees to develop aroma and flavor. Once a wine is off the gross lees, I may not rack again for a year. I barrel age some wines for 12 months, stirring the barrels at topup time for 6 months, then letting it settle for the remaining 6 months.

If you're racking too often, you're wasting wine (loss due to racking) and needlessly exposing wine to air. I was taught to rack every 3 months, but later realized that if I am not gaining some positive result, I should not be performing that action (this applies to more than racking). Racking off fine lees produces no benefit, and racking a clear wine with no sediment is even worse.

Many moons ago one person I knew racked his wines monthly. He took a SG reading every month and threw away that wine because it was contaminated. At the end of a year, he could not understand why he lost nearly a full carboy from a total of 4. Nor did he listen when numerous people told him to stop throwing his wine away.

He was one of my best teachers, as he taught me what not to do.

Regarding Campden, think of it this way -- would you get a flu shot then repeatedly expose yourself to people with the flu? K-meta is an anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, and preservative -- however, the less you give it to do, the better.

 

[Applewineguy]

I've read numerous theories about gross lees, including one source that said gross lees (fruit solids) decomposes immediately and wine should be racked daily during fermentation until all all lees are gone. IMO that POV is simply ridiculous, and personal experience proves it out. On the other end of that scale, I've left wine on the gross lees for a couple of months and it developed off flavors that never went away. The best choice is in between these two extremes.

More plausible sources state that gross lees drops within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. I generally leave the wine for 1 to 3 weeks, which ensures the gross lees is down, then I rack. Anything that falls after that is fine lees (yeast hulls).

There is no need to rack off the fine lees. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage", which are techniques for using the fine lees to develop aroma and flavor. Once a wine is off the gross lees, I may not rack again for a year. I barrel age some wines for 12 months, stirring the barrels at topup time for 6 months, then letting it settle for the remaining 6 months.

If you're racking too often, you're wasting wine (loss due to racking) and needlessly exposing wine to air. I was taught to rack every 3 months, but later realized that if I am not gaining some positive result, I should not be performing that action (this applies to more than racking). Racking off fine lees produces no benefit, and racking a clear wine with no sediment is even worse.

Many moons ago one person I knew racked his wines monthly. He took a SG reading every month and threw away that wine because it was contaminated. At the end of a year, he could not understand why he lost nearly a full carboy from a total of 4. Nor did he listen when numerous people told him to stop throwing his wine away.

He was one of my best teachers, as he taught me what not to do.

Regarding Campden, think of it this way -- would you get a flu shot then repeatedly expose yourself to people with the flu? K-meta is an anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, and preservative -- however, the less you give it to do, the better.

Here is what has settled since and no crud up top an color is balanced through the carboy but still bubbling a small amount. Will check SG tonight but ya would like to get it off these lees.

 

[David Violante]

Looking great!

 

[Applewineguy]

Looking great!

Thanks. I'm more excited for what I would call a Metheglin as it is technically made with herbs, I started 2 nights ago

 

[Applewineguy]

I've read numerous theories about gross lees, including one source that said gross lees (fruit solids) decomposes immediately and wine should be racked daily during fermentation until all all lees are gone. IMO that POV is simply ridiculous, and personal experience proves it out. On the other end of that scale, I've left wine on the gross lees for a couple of months and it developed off flavors that never went away. The best choice is in between these two extremes.

More plausible sources state that gross lees drops within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. I generally leave the wine for 1 to 3 weeks, which ensures the gross lees is down, then I rack. Anything that falls after that is fine lees (yeast hulls).

There is no need to rack off the fine lees. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage", which are techniques for using the fine lees to develop aroma and flavor. Once a wine is off the gross lees, I may not rack again for a year. I barrel age some wines for 12 months, stirring the barrels at topup time for 6 months, then letting it settle for the remaining 6 months.

If you're racking too often, you're wasting wine (loss due to racking) and needlessly exposing wine to air. I was taught to rack every 3 months, but later realized that if I am not gaining some positive result, I should not be performing that action (this applies to more than racking). Racking off fine lees produces no benefit, and racking a clear wine with no sediment is even worse.

Many moons ago one person I knew racked his wines monthly. He took a SG reading every month and threw away that wine because it was contaminated. At the end of a year, he could not understand why he lost nearly a full carboy from a total of 4. Nor did he listen when numerous people told him to stop throwing his wine away.

He was one of my best teachers, as he taught me what not to do.

Regarding Campden, think of it this way -- would you get a flu shot then repeatedly expose yourself to people with the flu? K-meta is an anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, and preservative -- however, the less you give it to do, the better.

Checked my S.G and it's basically halted at 1.007 roughly? It's been floating around that mark since I racked it a day or two ago and while the airlock is still decently active, I'm not sure. Typically they say if it doesn't move over 3 days it's done but people have had secondary go for up to 4 weeks? So not sure. I don't want to rack again if it's still slowly going. Starting SG was 1.113. The high acid and low pH really did a number on this batch causing countless issues with fermentation and really making it slow.

My one gal Metheglin is trucking along real nice though but I've gone a different process for it which I'll be likely using from now on. It went from 1.10-SG to 1.045-SG in 2 days and still going hard.

 

[winemaker81]

Checked my S.G and it's basically halted at 1.007 roughly? It's been floating around that mark since I racked it a day or two ago and while the airlock is still decently active, I'm not sure. Typically they say if it doesn't move over 3 days it's done but people have had secondary go for up to 4 weeks? So not sure. I don't want to rack again if it's still slowly going. Starting SG was 1.13. The high acid and low pH really did a number on this batch causing countless issues with fermentation and really making it slow.

If your OG was 1.130 and the current is 1.007, the calculator I use indicates 16.7% ABV. Depending on what yeast you used, the ferment may be complete. The way it cleared leads me to believe that, especially if you used a lower ABV tolerant yeast.

Activity in the airlock tells you nothing useful. Could be fermentation, could be degassing, could be changes in temperature and pressure.

The description of "done" is if the SG <= 0.998 and stable for 3 days. However, that's not 100% guaranteed and needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Also, I've had wines finish above 1.000 for reasons unexplained.

If it were me, I'd ignore the wine for 2 weeks, then rack off the sediment. Move back into secondary (topped up) and ignore it for 3 months, then check it. If the SG is still 1.007 at that point, I'd figure it's done.

 

[Applewineguy]

If your OG was 1.130 and the current is 1.007, the calculator I use indicates 16.7% ABV. Depending on what yeast you used, the ferment may be complete. The way it cleared leads me to believe that, especially if you used a lower ABV tolerant yeast.

Activity in the airlock tells you nothing useful. Could be fermentation, could be degassing, could be changes in temperature and pressure.

The description of "done" is if the SG <= 0.998 and stable for 3 days. However, that's not 100% guaranteed and needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Also, I've had wines finish above 1.000 for reasons unexplained.

If it were me, I'd ignore the wine for 2 weeks, then rack off the sediment. Move back into secondary (topped up) and ignore it for 3 months, then check it. If the SG is still 1.007 at that point, I'd figure it's done.

I'm not sure what calculator you're using but the math seems off? Should be just under 14% I'm quite sure your calculator is not doing it properly as every single calculator I've used for batches and alcohol calculations shows the same 13-14% in this range of SG. I'd have needed a much higher starting SG in order to hit 16.7%

I did use V1116 yeast.


So you figure leave it on those lees for another 2 weeks? I was thinking of racking off them and throwing some bentonite in. Then rack again and use sparkaloid, then once clear, cold crash to pull out excess tartaric acid?

 

[winemaker81]

I'm not sure what calculator you're using but the math seems off? Should be just under 14% I'm quite sure your calculator is not doing it properly as every single calculator I've used for batches and alcohol calculations shows the same 13-14% in this range of SG. I'd have needed a much higher starting SG in order to hit 16.7%

I did use V1116 yeast.


So you figure leave it on those lees for another 2 weeks? I was thinking of racking off them and throwing some bentonite in. Then rack again and use sparkaloid, then once clear, cold crash to pull out excess tartaric acid?

I use (OG-FG)/7.36, and for the figures listed in my last post,16.7% is a correct result. Note that you listed your OG as 1.13 and I used that value, whereas the value in the figure you posted says the OG is 1.113. For that value, the current ABV is 14.4%.

The ABV calculation is an approximation, and for table wine there are at least 3 formulas I know of, all of which produce slightly different results. I chose the above for reasons I don't recall, and stick with it so I'm internally consistent.

I suggest you always list SG values with 3 digits to the right of the decimal as it avoids confusion and typos. We get a lot of those.

K1-V1116 has a published ABV tolerance of 18%, so that is not likely the problem.

At this time the wine is not done fermenting. Doing anything now is a waste of effort, and is more likely to be detrimental than beneficial. Patience is your friend.

Note that every fining agent has side effects, and unless you have a specific reason to use more than one, don't.