sg is too high, fermentation not starting

[rucusworks]

My wife and I started a wine last night. We are doing a apple mango passion fruit concentrate. We like things to be somewhat sweet. But we definitely over sweetened. Here is what we used:

4 gallon batch
12 frozen concentrate containers
8 lbs sugar
2.5 tsp yeast nutrient
3 tbsp liquid tannin
Water to take it to 4 gallons
1 pack red montrache yeast

SG was at 1.145 when we pitched last night. No fermentation yet. We usually see activity after 12 hours. Temp was 62 when pitched but should be around 68 now though.

We don't want to throw out the whole batch and start over unless we have to. We were thinking of dividing the must somehow into another container and watering it down and add a few more cans of concentrate to bring it more in line with a SG of 1.10 or so.

Would this process work or are we out of luck with this batch? Any help is appreciated.

 

[robie]

It can take up to 72 hours for visible fermentation to start.

You can dilute it the way you wrote and probably should. The resulting ABV would be about 19.3%, which is likely more than your yeast can handle. If it does get going, the yeast will die when the alcohol is about 15 to 17%, depending on the yeast strain. This will leave the wine sweet, which might be OK for you.

You may have to prepare a yeast starter by getting the yeast going in a separate 4 to 8 cup container with some watered down version (50/50) of your must. Start by hydrating the yeast in 100 to 104F F 1/2 cup of water for 5 minutes, then slowly add 50/50 solution of your must (same temperature) to it.

Once yeast solution is bubbling/foaming well, add your full-strength must to it a tablespoon at a time over about another 30 minute time until the solution is 50% your full-strength must. Let it set for 30 more minutes and make sure it is still bubbling/foaming well. When it gets to be the same temperature as the must in the fermentor, first stir the must in the fermentor really well, then pour starter solution into the fermentor and gentle stir it in.

 

[rucusworks]

Thanks Robie. Should I then continue to proceed with the must at 1.145 or should I divide it into two containers and cut it with water and concentrate? I understand kick starting the yeast but do you think my must has too much sugar to complete?

 

[robie]

Thanks Robie. Should I then continue to proceed with the must at 1.145 or should I divide it into two containers and cut it with water and concentrate? I understand kick starting the yeast but do you think my must has too much sugar to complete?

Definitely too much to completely ferment to dry. (1.145 - .998) * 131 is 19.3% ABV. The yeast will die from alcohol poisoning before they get to that ABV.

You mentioned you want it sweet, anyway. In this case it definitely will be sweet, if it gets started at all.

I would dilute it to an SG of more like 1.1, then back sweeten.

 

[FABulousWines]

I am really new to this so this is more of a question than a statement. If you want a sweet wine, isn't it generally better to target your starting SG for the potential alcohol content and then back sweeten after fermentation ends to a dry wine? I have read somewhere that a starting SG of 1100 or more can cause issues starting fermentation and that is why I ask.

 

[rucusworks]

Definitely too much to completely ferment to dry. (1.145 - .998) * 131 is 19.3% ABV. The yeast will die from alcohol poisoning before they get to that ABV.

You mentioned you want it sweet, anyway. In this case it definitely will be sweet, if it gets started at all.

I would dilute it to an SG of more like 1.1, then back sweeten.

I'll do just that. Just curious if there is a simple way to calculate how much I would need to dilute it to obtain a 1.10.

 

[robie]

I am really new to this so this is more of a question than a statement. If you want a sweet wine, isn't it generally better to target your starting SG for the potential alcohol content and then back sweeten after fermentation ends to a dry wine? I have read somewhere that a starting SG of 1100 or more can cause issues starting fermentation and that is why I ask.

Yes, on all accounts.

For home wine making, in order to end up with a sweetened wine, it is recommended to ferment to dry, then backsweeten to the desired sweetness.

It is more of a challenge to get high SG fermentations started. Generally, one does have to prepare a yeast starter, otherwise, it can be very hit and miss. If for some reason one wants a higher SG (for a higher ABV), additional sugar can be added during fermentation but after fermentation has reduced the level of sugar in the wine. WineXpert's Chocolate raspberry port kit does this.

If a high initial SG fermentation does start, it may not complete before the alcohol kills the yeast. In this case, the wine will be left sweet. All strains of yeast have their own limit as to how much alcohol they can tolerate before dieing. Many strains can tolerate 16 to 17%, some even more. Sometimes one can use this as an advantage to end up with a sweetened wine. Add more sugar than the yeast can tolerate and wait until they all die. It works OK as long as some wild strain of yeast doesn't come along and restart fermentation.

Some commercial wine makers will allow a wine to ferment to a specified ABV, then add brandy to instantly shock, poison and kill the yeast. The purpose is of course to stop fermentation and leave the wine sweet.

I guess a home wine maker can do these same things, but I am not sure there is a distinct (enough) advantage over simply fermenting to dry, then back-sweetening. Actually there is at least one reason to maybe consider - with the yeast poisoned and dead, there is little chance fermentation will accidentally start again. Still, there are better ways to prevent this.

 

[rucusworks]

Yes, on all accounts.

For home wine making, in order to end up with a sweetened wine, it is recommended to ferment to dry, then backsweeten to the desired sweetness.

It is more of a challenge to get high SG fermentations started. Generally, one does have to prepare a yeast starter, otherwise, it can be very hit and miss. If for some reason one wants a higher SG (for a higher ABV), additional sugar can be added during fermentation but after fermentation has reduced the level of sugar in the wine. WineXpert's Chocolate raspberry port kit does this.

If a high initial SG fermentation does start, it may not complete before the alcohol kills the yeast. In this case, the wine will be left sweet. All strains of yeast have their own limit as to how much alcohol they can tolerate before dieing. Many strains can tolerate 16 to 17%, some even more. Sometimes one can use this as an advantage to end up with a sweetened wine. Add more sugar than the yeast can tolerate and wait until they all die. It works OK as long as some wild strain of yeast doesn't come along and restart fermentation.

Some commercial wine makers will allow a wine to ferment to a specified ABV, then add brandy to instantly shock, poison and kill the yeast. The purpose is of course to stop fermentation and leave the wine sweet.

I guess a home wine maker can do these same things, but I am not sure there is a distinct (enough) advantage over simply fermenting to dry, then back-sweetening. Actually there is at least one reason to maybe consider - with the yeast poisoned and dead, there is little chance fermentation will accidentally start again. Still, there are better ways to prevent this.

So I got home this evening, and the must has begun to ferment. Would you still dilute the original? I have everything to do it so I figured it couldn't hurt.

 

[jswordy]

I am really new to this so this is more of a question than a statement. If you want a sweet wine, isn't it generally better to target your starting SG for the potential alcohol content and then back sweeten after fermentation ends to a dry wine? I have read somewhere that a starting SG of 1100 or more can cause issues starting fermentation and that is why I ask.

I'm on the no side of this. It is not "better." I realize Robie's on the yes side.

IMO so much of what is taken as the correct way to do it by home winemakers has been derived from kit manufacturers who have reasons to do it this way that revolve around making sure the maximum number of kits turn out successfully for all levels of winemakers.

I've made several wines now in which I selected the yeast to die at a specific point and leave residual sweetness, rather than burning through all the sugar and then back sweetening.

One thing I can say about the residual sugar wines is that they are more approachable early because there is less sharp alcohol taste in them. I'm still experimenting with this approach. It is rapidly becoming my preferred method. I want to see what happens as different lengths of aging are achieved.

Actually, it is the way the majority of home wines were made in the past, before chemical winemaking was introduced. Because there's not much net info on this, I have had to be schooled by people who make wine who are not on the net, and I am still exploring where the finishing SG is for different starts and different yeasts. I use the weaker yeasts for this because the strong ones will just plow along and eat everything up anyway, which is not my goal.

I have had no fermentation issues starting as high as 1.180. I do not make a starter, I just sprinkle the yeast on top and let it float there for two or three days, then stir it in. Part of what I think people consider "fermentation issues" results from what they are looking for. If I can see the yeast is blooming on top (and it is easy to see if you do not stir it in right away), I do not care if I have bubbles and I don't worry about the hydrometer until late day two or early day three. By then, I am just using it to confirm what I have seen.

 

[jswordy]

rucusworks, fermentation started right off just as I would expect it to do. I suspect you may not have known what to look for since you are new, and it may have started slow because of temp or SG or yeast type. I do not know if you simply sprinkled on top or stirred in or made a starter. Next time you start high, try what I said in my post above.

I would not dilute! Dilution will thin your fruit flavors (which you already do not have enough of, IMO). Let it go now, is my advice.

What yeast did you use? If it is a strong one you will get high alcohol wine and you can dilute that with an fpac or fruit concentrate at the end that will also serve you well to boost fruit flavors. If it is a weaker yeast, you will finish at a sweeter, higher SG like perhaps 1.020-1.030. You can still dilute with fpac or concentrate at the end, but will start with a sweeter wine with less alcohol bite.

UNDER EDIT: Here is an early yeast bloom from a packet sprinkled on top with no signs of carbonation yet. The white blobs are yeast.

 

[FABulousWines]

Jim, I appreciate your opinion. This would indeed be a boring hobby if we did it all the same way. Before I even finished reading your post I was thinking about what you alluded to. It seems the solution to creating a sweet wine can be had by many different methods. However, for someone as inexperienced as myself it is probably an easier control to go dry and back sweeten. I do appreciate the complexities of the aging process and what that might mean, regarding when to account for residual sugar. There is a huge learning curve ahead for me, but I am very much looking forward to climbing it.

Rucusworks, I am glad to hear your must is fermenting. If it were me, I would probably leave it be, unless you really aren't wanting a sweet wine at finish.

 

[wineforfun]

I too have started playing around with the higher starting SG's and using a yeast that dies off around the mark I want, leaving a sweet/semi-sweet wine, rather than always drying out the wine and then backsweetening. I still do the latter, just not as much.
My next project will be trying the high SG with a plain mead and try to get it to stop where I want so I don't have to backsweeten. Either way works, but I agree with Jim, don't dilute or throw it out, etc. as I think it will end up pretty close to what you want.

 

[jswordy]

Jim, I appreciate your opinion. This would indeed be a boring hobby if we did it all the same way. Before I even finished reading your post I was thinking about what you alluded to. It seems the solution to creating a sweet wine can be had by many different methods. However, for someone as inexperienced as myself it is probably an easier control to go dry and back sweeten. I do appreciate the complexities of the aging process and what that might mean, regarding when to account for residual sugar. There is a huge learning curve ahead for me, but I am very much looking forward to climbing it.

Rucusworks, I am glad to hear your must is fermenting. If it were me, I would probably leave it be, unless you really aren't wanting a sweet wine at finish.

Yup and that's exactly why the kit makers ferment to dry and use robust yeast strains, to make sure a beginner will achieve success. But as you gain experience, simply saying it made alcohol and tastes like wine becomes easy and you will want to achieve other goals. That's why words like "better" and "best" are subjective.

I just like the flavor of the high sugar way of doing it better. It's still very experimental for me, because I have to learn the technique from what I found out from old-timey winemakers who are offline. I'm trying to marry their old ways to modern winemaking techniques.

 

[seth8530]

I'm on the no side of this. It is not "better." I realize Robie's on the yes side.

IMO so much of what is taken as the correct way to do it by home winemakers has been derived from kit manufacturers who have reasons to do it this way that revolve around making sure the maximum number of kits turn out successfully for all levels of winemakers.

I've made several wines now in which I selected the yeast to die at a specific point and leave residual sweetness, rather than burning through all the sugar and then back sweetening.

One thing I can say about the residual sugar wines is that they are more approachable early because there is less sharp alcohol taste in them. I'm still experimenting with this approach. It is rapidly becoming my preferred method. I want to see what happens as different lengths of aging are achieved.

Actually, it is the way the majority of home wines were made in the past, before chemical winemaking was introduced. Because there's not much net info on this, I have had to be schooled by people who make wine who are not on the net, and I am still exploring where the finishing SG is for different starts and different yeasts. I use the weaker yeasts for this because the strong ones will just plow along and eat everything up anyway, which is not my goal.

I have had no fermentation issues starting as high as 1.180. I do not make a starter, I just sprinkle the yeast on top and let it float there for two or three days, then stir it in. Part of what I think people consider "fermentation issues" results from what they are looking for. If I can see the yeast is blooming on top (and it is easy to see if you do not stir it in right away), I do not care if I have bubbles and I don't worry about the hydrometer until late day two or early day three. By then, I am just using it to confirm what I have seen.

I too am on Robies side, there are people who do things the way jswordy does it and it works for them. I however, have found that if I want a sweet wine that I get much more predictable results by first letting the wine ferment try, stabilizing the kmeta and sorbate and then sweetening to taste. That way you can control exactly how much sugar and alcohol you want in your wine nearly every time. There is more than one way to do anything but that their is my 2 cents.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

I think it has more to do with yeast strains and fruit than how you sweeten (back sweeten or there is residual sugar).

To really know which way is better, you would have to take the same yeast and fruit, sweeten to different starting sg's and do a taste test with multiple people (like a judging). I don't think anyone can clearly say which method is better without real world data. Some wineries filter out there yeast to hit their target, but is that to save on sugar, avoid minor h2s (there is probably always some when yeast dies) and to ensure no re fermentation in the bottle? Or is it for better taste?

I'm not saying either side is better because I've never seen real evidence that proves one is better. I've seen people say they prefer this or that, but quoting commercial practices is not proof. There are many reasons commercial wineries do what they do and many are economies of scale. I think the real proof is in the wine you make and leave it at that!

 

[seth8530]

One major advantage with back sweetining is that you have a lot more control over ABV and residual sugar than letting the yeast goes till it stalls.

 

[seth8530]

I think it has more to do with yeast strains and fruit than how you sweeten (back sweeten or there is residual sugar).

To really know which way is better, you would have to take the same yeast and fruit, sweeten to different starting sg's and do a taste test with multiple people (like a judging). I don't think anyone can clearly say which method is better without real world data. Some wineries filter out there yeast to hit their target, but is that to save on sugar, avoid minor h2s (there is probably always some when yeast dies) and to ensure no re fermentation in the bottle? Or is it for better taste?

I'm not saying either side is better because I've never seen real evidence that proves one is better. I've seen people say they prefer this or that, but quoting commercial practices is not proof. There are many reasons commercial wineries do what they do and many are economies of scale. I think the real proof is in the wine you make and leave it at that!

And it is indeed fine to do things however you want to do them. It is just good to know which methods exist and the pros and cons of each method.

 

[andy123]

SG 1.145 is pretty high how about we add a little water to bring it down.

 

[wineforfun]

SG 1.145 is pretty high how about we add a little water to bring it down.

That is exactly where I started my SG with the Concord Grape Concentrate and it stopped around 1.040 giving me approx. a 14% ABV. It tastes great.

As far as the "which is better" I stand by my opinion that there is no such thing. Better, best, etc. is all relative to who is drinking it. Just because someone hand picked the "cream of the crop" grapes and produced a $200 bottle of wine, it doesn't make it better than a $2 bottle of Boones Farm. Everyone has different tastes.

 

[seth8530]

Yeah that is true. For me 1.040 is way to sweet. But we all have different taste. I personally prefer no sweeter than 1.01 ish.

I would also of been in the camp of toning down he initial gravity as well.