Should i assume starting SG 1.090?

[New_Guy_Brad]

All the recopies i read say "once the SG reaches ____ transfer to secondary" but none of them say what the initial SG aim is, and obviously differant fruit will make the initial SG at different levels.

So with that i have a couple batches i made up (raspberry melomel, and orange wine) that once mixed up had a higher SG than 1.090 (some much higher the orange started at 1.135 :< )

My questions-
1. Should it be assumed all recipes should start at 1.090?

2. If recipe says to transfer to secondary once it reaches SG 1.040. Should i assume this means that the starting should have been 1.090 and to transfer once its 0.050 from its initial?

3. So since i started (very very high as far as i can tell) at 1.138 should i then transfer to a secondary once it reaches 1.088?

4. (unrelated question) with such a high starting SG is this wine going to end up way too sweet? I would dilute it down but i don't have a larger primary.

 

[Deezil]

The initial SG doesnt have anything to do with when to rack, just the 1 SG mid-fermentation. If it told you to rack at 1.040, you'd still rack at 1.040 regardless of where it started... Although i will say, 1.040 is a bit early to be racking to secondary, i'd let it progress closer to dry.

As for your last question.. It could either end up sweet (if the yeast quits early) or with a high alcohol level (if the yeasties are beasties).. Either way theres only enough sugar in there for the potential alcohol of 18-19%, so it might end a bit strong but shouldnt be undrinkable.

 

[jswordy]

The initial SG doesnt have anything to do with when to rack, just the 1 SG mid-fermentation. If it told you to rack at 1.040, you'd still rack at 1.040 regardless of where it started... Although i will say, 1.040 is a bit early to be racking to secondary, i'd let it progress closer to dry.

As for your last question.. It could either end up sweet (if the yeast quits early) or with a high alcohol level (if the yeasties are beasties).. Either way theres only enough sugar in there for the potential alcohol of 18-19%, so it might end a bit strong but shouldnt be undrinkable.

You so right man! There are fruity-tasting recipes out there that rack to secondary at 1.030 or 1.040, though, and they all do the part I like best, which is (as you said so well) produce "the potential alcohol of 18-19%."

Now we talking! It's OK, back sweeten and f-pac can make it smooth as silk - but with a kick in there. If it gets up to 18-19% it typically ends around 15-16% after all the fixins. Mmmm!

A 1.040 rack to secondary means a very vigorous initial secondary so there has to be enough head space to avoid a fountain.

I use 1.100 as my upper-range start guide.

 

[New_Guy_Brad]

The initial SG doesnt have anything to do with when to rack, just the 1 SG mid-fermentation. If it told you to rack at 1.040, you'd still rack at 1.040 regardless of where it started... Although i will say, 1.040 is a bit early to be racking to secondary, i'd let it progress closer to dry.

As for your last question.. It could either end up sweet (if the yeast quits early) or with a high alcohol level (if the yeasties are beasties).. Either way theres only enough sugar in there for the potential alcohol of 18-19%, so it might end a bit strong but shouldnt be undrinkable.

Sounds good but for future recipes how should i know what to get the initial SG at?

None of the recipes i have read say what the initial should be. I could follow recipes but different fruit is going to have a different amount of sugar in them and thus will produce a different starting SG.

 

[Deezil]

Most fruit, other than grapes, will need sugar added. I've found that most fruits, even when "overly ripe" dont get above about SG 1.040-1.050 by themselves.

Most people aim / suggest an SG in the range of 1.080-1.085 for a starting SG (roughly 11.5-12% alcohol) as this makes an easily drinkable wine, and the ABV is high enough to keep spoilage microbes at bay.

 

[Rodnboro]

Some good answers have already been submitted. I have found that the beginning sg should be determined on the fruit. For example, I start my blackberry @ 1.090 and peach @ 1.080. Some fruits can handle the higher alcohol without losing flavor.

 

[Deezil]

Right... I was just trying to give generalizations until the basic concepts are understood. But you're right, some of the red, bold-flavored fruits can handle a higher alcohol level - blackberries, elderberries, raspberries come to mind.

 

[New_Guy_Brad]

Thanks for the responses i guess Starting SG is something i'm going to have to learn over time with trial and error.

 

[Deezil]

There are calculators online to help you out, with how much sugar to add to go from one SG to another.. WineCalc is one that comes to mind, that i've used in the past

 

[New_Guy_Brad]

Also since i used K1-V1116 yeast that has from what i understand a 14% alcohol tolerance, and my starting SG was 1.135 (potential alcohol 17.6%) should i assume at most my SG can possibly get down to is ~1.030 (potential alcohol 4%) at which point it should by 14% alcohol?

 

[Deezil]

That'd be about right, although your SG might stop a little higher than that if the yeast become stressed in some way. Might develop off flavors or smells in that case, but other than that no real worries.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

Also since i used K1-V1116 yeast that has from what i understand a 14% alcohol tolerance, and my starting SG was 1.135 (potential alcohol 17.6%) should i assume at most my SG can possibly get down to is ~1.030 (potential alcohol 4%) at which point it should by 14% alcohol?

http://www.lalvinyeast.com/images/library/ICV-K1_Yeast.pdf

It will go to 18% abv. I have used this yeast MANY times and it is particularly fast and strong. I keep it on hand at all times for stuck fermentations.

When wine drops 8 hundredths or .08 on the hydrometer (NOT .008 - watch the decimal. lol), you are just at/over 10% abv and have enough alcohol to protect the wine. However, trying to stop a yeast can result in what Deezil was talking about. Off flavors or H2S production, which is not good. You are going to have very high ABV, but what I would suggest is, letting it ferment down, then sweeten with juice of the same fruit and stabilize with kmeta and sorbate. Always check the sg AS you add sugar slowly. Never go by a recipe for sugar because fruit will never be the same. Acid is the same way. Gotta check first, then add slowly. No worries though, with a little TLC, it should be drinkable. Might have a little kick.

When it comes to racking, 1.030-all the way down to just before dry (~1) will work fine. I usually rack around 1.010-1.020. Everyone does there own thing here. Just get it under airlock before the yeasties die.

That's my 2 cents. There's about a million ways to make wine. If you want high alcohol, make it that way. This is for you, so it can never be the wrong way.

 

[Deezil]

Yeah i was gonna mention the possibility of the yeast running hot & going upwards of 18%, but for some reason 14% sounded right... PDF kinda proves that wrong lol

18% is definitely drinkable though, just might need a hefty f-pack

 

[jswordy]

Like MWV said (I think), yeast can run to higher abv if the sugar is present to support them. For example, my standby Lalvin 71B-1122 has an advertised 14% tolerance but in higher SG wines I have had it produce 18%+ abv finishes with no adverse effects. I just make sure it has nutrients to support continued production. Then just like MWV described, I lower the abv with my finishing process, resulting in a nice 15% abv with flavor packed into it on the finished end. There's really nothing to worry about then. The stuff's well above preserved level.

It is very fun to hear people scoff at the idea of two glasses and you are drunk, and then have them drink a wine that is round and smooth (largely due to 1122's ability to metabolize malic acid, I think) and watch it sneak up on them by surprise. I am also a fan of using acid on the back end to zing the tongue with tartness, which helps mask the alcohol's astringency. It even sneaks up on me sometimes, and I am aware!

I have a friend who is single and he likes my wine on hand for his "would you like to come in for a nightcap?" dates. ::

 

[robie]

Also since i used K1-V1116 yeast that has from what i understand a 14% alcohol tolerance, and my starting SG was 1.135 (potential alcohol 17.6%) should i assume at most my SG can possibly get down to is ~1.030 (potential alcohol 4%) at which point it should by 14% alcohol?

You might get more than 14% out of your yeast, but not that much more. The best thing is to not allow the SG to start that high. Next thing is to use a yeast with a higher alcohol tolerance. Yes, your yeast will stop before the wine is dry. It will be left sweet, so you will need to add sorbate.