Speidel / Fermonster / Big Mouth Bubbler...

[David Violante]

I would like to continue doing extended macerations and am curious as to what folks prefer and why. Some of my thoughts about choosing included ease of moving, ability to create a good seal, and cost. Are there other considerations? Thank you much in advance...

 

[BernardSmith]

Maceration? But that is before and during active fermentation is it not? Is there really a need for a "good seal"? I macerate in buckets with cloth loosely covering the openings to keep flies and dirt out. Seals are for the secondary, in my opinion.

 

[sour_grapes]

Maceration? But that is before and during active fermentation is it not? Is there really a need for a "good seal"? I macerate in buckets with cloth loosely covering the openings to keep flies and dirt out. Seals are for the secondary, in my opinion.

Extended maceration. There are quite a few threads on this on WMT. Here is one at random: How to perform extended maceration?

 

[David Violante]

Maceration? But that is before and during active fermentation is it not? Is there really a need for a "good seal"? I macerate in buckets with cloth loosely covering the openings to keep flies and dirt out. Seals are for the secondary, in my opinion.

@BernardSmith Yes - I do as well, exactly as you do in fact. The seals on the buckets I have are not good for a longer period of time however (4-6 weeks post primary fermentation for EM) and so I'm looking to add a step between bucket and carboy (where I'll then age for considerably longer) ...and my wine too! LOL

 

[Bmd2k1]

I'm a big fan of the Speidels....

Have 2x 30L used for primary & 6x 20L used for secondary & bulk aging.

Cheers!

 

[Old Corker]

I use glass Big Mouth Bubblers. I just bought a second one so I can do double batches. I will say that the seal can be a problem. If there is much CO2 it will push the larger lid up and break the seal. To my thinking, if there is enough CO2 to do that its probably not a problem. They also come with a removable strap you can attach to the lifting harness that cinches the lid down.

 

[David Violante]

I'm a big fan of the Speidels....

Have 2x 30L used for primary & 6x 20L used for secondary & bulk aging.

Cheers!

Thank you I do like the Speidels for a number of reasons (handles, weight of the material, options...). I'm just not sure if I'm doing enough EM to justify the cost at the moment. That may very well change in the near future... It is a nice fermenter though...

 

[David Violante]

I use glass Big Mouth Bubblers. I just bought a second one so I can do double batches. I will say that the seal can be a problem. If there is much CO2 it will push the larger lid up and break the seal. To my thinking, if there is enough CO2 to do that its probably not a problem. They also come with a removable strap you can attach to the lifting harness that cinches the lid down.

Thank you... The Big Mouth Bubbler was one of my first thoughts actually, but I was considering the plastic one. The concerns I had were no handles (fixed by a strap) and the seal (as you related). When watching a few online reviews one of the folks mentioned the patterns in the side wall as being more difficult to clean but that it wasn't a deal breaker. In one of the reviews it had a screw on type cap similar to the Speidel but I couldn't find that one. It looked like they were all as you had described.

 

[Gilmango]

Really like the one 30L Speidel I bought primarily to do extended macerations, very well built, handles are great, the seal is great, love the giant airlock it comes with, really like that the tap at the bottom is optional (you can install the tap, or, alternatively just seal it up with screw on cap which is provided.

The knocks are that it costs more and is not nearly as see through as the other two you mentioned. But once you buy a strap and the tap for the other two the cost gets alot closer. $70 for Speidel, all included, $34 for Fermonster with tap, $15 more for a strap = $49. Prices from MoreWine/MoreBeer without discount, and they are both 15% off till the end of the day (July 1, 2021), and orders over $59 ship free.

 

[Spencerthebuilder]

Considering adding a 30L Speidel as they seem slick, but have a question. My buckets and a towel work just fine for fermentation. If I have the skins, I'd like to do an extended maceration, but the wine must be racked from the gross lees first, so what's the point? And while sealed and airlocked, it still has headspace and a large surface area that will eventually have the Co2 replaced with o2. So i would need to top off a 5+ gallon batch to 7.9 gallons? And bulk aging? What am I missing?

 

[Gilmango]

Considering adding a 30L Speidel as they seem slick, but have a question. My buckets and a towel work just fine for fermentation. If I have the skins, I'd like to do an extended maceration, but the wine must be racked from the gross lees first, so what's the point? And while sealed and airlocked, it still has headspace and a large surface area that will eventually have the Co2 replaced with o2. So i would need to top off a 5+ gallon batch to 7.9 gallons? And bulk aging? What am I missing?

Do not separate the AF (active fermentation) from the EM (extended maceration), and do not fear the gross lees (there will not be any autolysis during EM). So don't do any racking between AF and EM. Start your AF in the Speidel, cover it with a towel like you usually do. Do your normal punch downs and monitoring of temperature and gravity, adding yeast nutrients, etc.

When AF is slowing down but not done (anywhere from 1.020 to 1.000, I tend to do this at the lower end around 1.005), you remove the towel and seal the fermenter up under airlock. Now you are continuing the EM phase, with just enough AF left to fill the headspace with CO2 (as AF continues to terminal gravity around 0995 or lower). From this point on, do not open the seal till EM is completed. No more punch downs, instead just rock the Speidel (or fermonster or big mouth bubble) to keep the skins moist, usually they will sink before EM is over. From here on there is no more measuring the gravity or temperature for this EM phase, as you don't want to lose your CO2 protection. The airlock should show you that the seal is working. Your EM started during AF, and it now continues in the same vessel for typically anywhere from 2-9 more weeks (3-10 weeks total from pitching yeast, including the AF).

When you open the seal your EM is done, it is time to rack off the skins, the gross lees, any oak or FPAC (fruit pack), into a carboy with no headspace, to begin your secondary / bulk aging process.

 

[Spencerthebuilder]

Thankb

Do not separate the AF (active fermentation) from the EM (extended maceration), and do not fear the gross lees (there will not be any autolysis during EM). So don't do any racking between AF and EM. Start your AF in the Speidel, cover it with a towel like you usually do. Do your normal punch downs and monitoring of temperature and gravity, adding yeast nutrients, etc.

When AF is slowing down but not done (anywhere from 1.020 to 1.000, I tend to do this at the lower end around 1.005), you remove the towel and seal the fermenter up under airlock. Now you are continuing the EM phase, with just enough AF left to fill the headspace with CO2 (as AF continues to terminal gravity around 0995 or lower). From this point on, do not open the seal till EM is completed. No more punch downs, instead just rock the Speidel (or fermonster or big mouth bubble) to keep the skins moist, usually they will sink before EM is over. From here on there is no more measuring the gravity or temperature for this EM phase, as you don't want to lose your CO2 protection. The airlock should show you that the seal is working. Your EM started during AF, and it now continues in the same vessel for typically anywhere from 2-9 more weeks (3-10 weeks total from pitching yeast, including the AF).

When you open the seal your EM is done, it is time to rack off the skins, the gross lees, any oak or FPAC (fruit pack), into a carboy with no headspace, to begin your secondary / bulk aging process.

You for the thorough and lengthy reply. Ive been taking it to dry+ a day or two with my towel. The sages here say as the CO2 is heavier it remains as a blanket unless disturbed. I live in fear of letting it sit on the lees too long Am I wrong that that's a primary error?

 

[David Violante]

Really like the one 30L Speidel I bought primarily to do extended macerations, very well built, handles are great, the seal is great, love the giant airlock it comes with, really like that the tap at the bottom is optional (you can install the tap, or, alternatively just seal it up with screw on cap which is provided.

The knocks are that it costs more and is not nearly as see through as the other two you mentioned. But once you buy a strap and the tap for the other two the cost gets alot closer. $70 for Speidel, all included, $34 for Fermonster with tap, $15 more for a strap = $49. Prices from MoreWine/MoreBeer without discount, and they are both 15% off till the end of the day (July 1, 2021), and orders over $59 ship free.

Hmmm.... great point about the cost. It's really not that much more all other things considered....

 

[Gilmango]

Thankb

You for the thorough and lengthy reply. Ive been taking it to dry+ a day or two with my towel. The sages here say as the CO2 is heavier it remains as a blanket unless disturbed. I live in fear of letting it sit on the lees too long Am I wrong that that's a primary error?

I have much more experience making beer and mead than wine, but in all three I think that the risk of yeast autoylsis is overblown, it takes a long time, and actually can yield some positive benefits. Aging wine on the yeast, sur lie in French, is super common for sparkling wines, Chardonnays, and some other whites, and some red wine makers are using it too to add body and mouth feel and complexity. But, even in a 10 week AF/EM regimen I don't think you will see much, if any, impact from the wine sitting on the gross lees, especially as you are not stirring the gross lees, as in common in sur lie wine making.

Here's one overview: Autolysis: When Yeast Die for the Wine Drinker's Pleasure

Here's another source which suggests it could take 6 months to see bad effects from autolysis: "If the wine is left on the lees for an extended period of time, say more than six months, the breakdown of yeast cells (autolysis) can cause H2S [hydrogen sulfide] production, so racking is recommended." Preventing Off-Flavors - WineMakerMag.com

 

[David Violante]

Thankb

You for the thorough and lengthy reply. Ive been taking it to dry+ a day or two with my towel. The sages here say as the CO2 is heavier it remains as a blanket unless disturbed. I live in fear of letting it sit on the lees too long Am I wrong that that's a primary error?

@Gilmango excellent post, thank you...

@Spencerthebuilder, it's probably a good idea to start protecting the wine when it gets down towards the end of fermentation by changing the towel out for a cover and an airlock as Gilmango indicated somewhere below 1.020. At this point the CO2 production will start slowing down but there's still quite a bit in solution and it will continue to come out and mix into the air in the headspace. @sour_grapes and others have explained in a far better way than I could that the air in the headspace mixes and there's no blanket effect at all of any gas. The CO2 production will continue to dilute out any other gasses present and be helpful in protecting the wine. The smaller the headspace the better.

A number of folks here (including me) slowly introduce nitrogen or argon into the headspace in an effort to reduce the amount of oxygen present, especially after fermentation ceases and we rack or tinker in some way. Slowly adding a 'heavier than air' gas close to the wine will help to push out any lighter air before it becomes turbulent and then mixes with the remaining gasses. Once you cap it with an airlock, whatever combination of air is present will become evenly diffused in the space. If your wine is still producing CO2 it will continue to increase it's own concentration in that space and push out the resultant concentration through the airlock in a continual process until CO2 doesn't come out of solution.

This is my first EM so I'm taking (as you indicated) the sage advice of those here about the entire process as well. There are a lot of great threads here about EM, and some pretty good videos by Tim Vandergrift on YouTube. I'm no expert by any stretch, this is all what I've gleaned from these fine folks ~

 

[Spencerthebuilder]

Do not separate the AF (active fermentation) from the EM (extended maceration), and do not fear the gross lees (there will not be any autolysis during EM). So don't do any racking between AF and EM. Start your AF in the Speidel, cover it with a towel like you usually do. Do your normal punch downs and monitoring of temperature and gravity, adding yeast nutrients, etc.

When AF is slowing down but not done (anywhere from 1.020 to 1.000, I tend to do this at the lower end around 1.005), you remove the towel and seal the fermenter up under airlock. Now you are continuing the EM phase, with just enough AF left to fill the headspace with CO2 (as AF continues to terminal gravity around 0995 or lower). From this point on, do not open the seal till EM is completed. No more punch downs, instead just rock the Speidel (or fermonster or big mouth bubble) to keep the skins moist, usually they will sink before EM is over. From here on there is no more measuring the gravity or temperature for this EM phase, as you don't want to lose your CO2 protection. The airlock should show you that the seal is working. Your EM started during AF, and it now continues in the same vessel for typically anywhere from 2-9 more weeks (3-10 weeks total from pitching yeast, including the AF).

When you open the seal your EM is done, it is time to rack off the skins, the gross lees, any oak or FPAC (fruit pack), into a carboy with no headspace, to begin your secondary / bulk aging process.

Gil- at what point do you stop agitating and whetting the skins? Once they've sunk I'm guessing. I was being cautious not to agitate the lees, but it seems mixing them back it is not so much an issue. I thought the whole point of a conical fermenter was to remove the lees. Are they beneficial , or just not a detriment up till 6 months? So basically cover and seal, air loc and don't worry about headspace. Revisit it in 9 weeks. Sulfite and rack

 

[sjjan]

Regularly take a tasting sample and you can taste it when the lees go bad. Mannoproteins or whatever are released when aging sur lie which gives the wine that deeper, more complex smell and taste, but this takes anywhere from 6 months or longer.

 

[Gilmango]

Gil- at what point do you stop agitating and whetting the skins? Once they've sunk I'm guessing. I was being cautious not to agitate the lees, but it seems mixing them back it is not so much an issue. I thought the whole point of a conical fermenter was to remove the lees. Are they beneficial , or just not a detriment up till 6 months? So basically cover and seal, air loc and don't worry about headspace. Revisit it in 9 weeks. Sulfite and rack

Yeah, if you know everything has sunk you can stop agitating (it's a bit of a guess in a Speidel as it is not see through). Lees can be beneficial if you are trying to do the whole sur lie thing, but here in the EM thing I think it is more just that they are not detrimental. If you did EM in a conical you certainly could take it off the lees, but no rush to do so and no need to rack after 1 week, move the skins over too, just to do EM off the lees. So yeah, basically don't worry about the lees or headspace, revisit at the end of your EM (9 weeks being about the max EM duration), sulfite and rack.

 

[Spencerthebuilder]

Best of thanks! you've just given me permission to be more relaxed and enjoy more of the summer