Stuck ferment like never before

[reeflections]

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to get most of the questions you might have covered.

I've only been making wine for almost a year, but I have made about 170 gallons. Although I have had a a couple of batches get stuck mid ferment, I have always been able to kick start them pretty easily. This sweet cherry that is my latest is really stuck and I have tried everything I know how to get it going again but I just can't get the yeast to start in this wine.

Started with pure cherry juice from concentrate (no additives)
Yeast was K1V116
Original S.G. was 1.114
stuck at 1.020 for at least 9 days now temps in the low 70's
I have added a packet of EC1118 along with some nutes and energizer to the 6 gallons – nothing happened
I used the E.C. Krause starter method by putting the wine with some water and another packet of EC118 in a quart jar – nothing happened.
It's like the wine at this point just kills the yeast.

ph?
One thing that struck me when I was starting it was that it took 10 TBS of acid blend to get an original ph of 3.45. Is cherry that low in acid??
I assume my digital ph tester is accurate because when I calibrate it, it is usually within .01 or .02 from the 4.0 and 7.0 solutions.
And now the ph has jumped up to 3.67

S.G.?
I have 2 hydrometers and both are reading the exact same thing.

Temp?
On a couple of the nights it was fermenting, the wine got as low as 68 degrees. Normally it has been about 72 degrees.

Yeast?
The yeast is well within expiration (2025), and I have stored it in the refrigerator. Is there an incompatibility between K1-V116 and EC1118?

Sugar?
I did have a rather high S.G. To start and probably should have step fed the 5# of sugar but now the S.G. Is 1.020 and I can't get the EC1118 to start.

Nutrients?
I added 1 ½ tsp of energizer at the beginning and after it stuck I added 1 tsp energizer and 1 tsp nutes when I added the pkg of EC1118

Water?
This is the first batch of wine that I used bottled water instead of tap. I did NOT use distilled water. But it was from a Primo machine at Walmart:

{Primo ensures high-quality water through a purification process including sediment and carbon filtration, ultraviolet sterilization, reverse osmosis, and ozonation. Minerals are added to ensure great taste. Ingredients: Purified Water, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate}

So, for those of you that got through this, thanks!

I'm afraid to start my next batch until I can figure out what went wrong with this on, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BernardSmith]

The best way to restart a stuck fermentation is to turn the process on its head. That is to say, do not pitch more yeast onto the stuck wine but add the stuck wine in small quantities to actively fermenting yeast. In other words, pitch some yeast onto a cup of warm water with perhaps a teaspoon of sugar. When you see the froth and foam indicating active fermentation add 1 cup from the stalled wine. Once you know - (you KNOW) that the wine is fermenting then add 2 cups (doubling the volume) and continue to double the volume until the entire stalled wine has been transferred to the actively fermenting yeast.
What you are doing is diluting the problem solution with the active solution. If the stalled wine has fundamental problems this process may allow you to neutralize them in a way that simply pitching good yeast into a problem wine may not. If the problems in the stalled wine are extreme then this process may itself stall.

 

[reeflections]

What you are doing is diluting the problem solution with the active solution. If the stalled wine has fundamental problems this process may allow you to neutralize them in a way that simply pitching good yeast into a problem wine may not. If the problems in the stalled wine are extreme then this process may itself stall.

That makes sense. Thanks. I actually started that method this morning since @salcoco mentioned it in another thread. So I'm waiting for the yeast/water/sugar to start up. I hope this does it but I still wonder why it stuck in the 1st place.

 

[Scooter68]

There is something odd there - Most times the pH is pretty doggone low during fermentation and remains relatively low until the wine has degassed. So if a wine was at a pH of 3.55 before fermentation started, I would expect the pH to drop as low as 3.25 during the fermentation.. I would never expect a fermented wine to end up with a pH above the starting pH measurement.

 

[reeflections]

There is something odd there - Most times the pH is pretty doggone low during fermentation and remains relatively low until the wine has degassed. So if a wine was at a pH of 3.55 before fermentation started, I would expect the pH to drop as low as 3.25 during the fermentation.. I would never expect a fermented wine to end up with a pH above the starting pH measurement.

My thoughts exactly. And isn't 10 TBS a lot of acid blend for 6 gallons of juice?

 

[BernardSmith]

But that's the thing: You add acid in the same way that you add salt to a dish - only after tasting. It's not self evident that country wines ALWAYS need more acidity and some in fact need the addition of a chemical base to reduce the acidity. A pH that drops below 3.0 can stall fermentation, and honey, for example, has no buffers so the pH can swing widely and wildly when under the effects of yeast. BUT pH has very little to do with taste. A measure of pH is about the STRENGTH of the acids in a wine. TA - the volume of acids affects taste. pH has an impact on the shelf life of a wine, not the taste.

 

[Raptor99]

My thoughts exactly. And isn't 10 TBS a lot of acid blend for 6 gallons of juice?

That does sound like a lot of acid. My cherry wine needed 1.25 tsp. for a gallon batch, which would be 2.5 Tbs for 6 gallons.

 

[reeflections]

It's not self evident that country wines ALWAYS need more acidity and some in fact need the addition of a chemical base to reduce the acidity. A pH that drops below 3.0 can stall fermentation, {snip}

I'm trying to understand. I've been told that if the initial pH is too low, the ferment could stall and if it is too high, the wine is flabby. So when I started this batch. like others, I checked the pH. It was over 3.75. Added acid blend stirred well and checked it again. I went thru this procedure quite a few times until I had added 6 TBS and the pH was down to 3.58. I thought that was a lot of acid blend so I decided to let it sit overnight. Then I stirred it again and it was still 3.58. So I ended up putting 4 more TBS of acid blend until it reached 3.44 - which was in the range I have been told to shoot for. And now, after it has fermented to an S.G. of 1.020, the pH is 3.67.

At this point, was I doing something wrong?

I was using pure sweet cherry juice concentrate (no additives) that I reconstituted to a little stronger that natural strength.

 

[Raptor99]

I wonder if your pH meter is not working correctly, or your buffering solution is off. What does the wine taste like? If the pH is below 3.0 you should be able to taste a strong acid bite. I realize that TA and pH are not the same thing, but they are not unrelated.

 

[Rembee]

I don't see where you did anything wrong. You adjusted the ph in a prescribed method like should have been done. The only thing that I don't see mentioned so far is racking. There could simple be to much C02 in solution. I would rack it and let it sit for a few more days. Do not be to concerned about any lees transferring over. Most of the lees is your colony of yeast waiting to get back to work. Remember, C02 is yeast waste and no one likes to swim in there own waste.
One other thing to note here is sweet cherry is a lot harder to ferment then sour cherry juice. That is just my observation with trying sweet cherry juice. I've had similar ferments using sweet cherry so I now try and stay with just tart or sour cherries.
As of right now, you are in the neighborhood of 12.5% ABV which is not to shabby. That may not be a bad thing if you were looking to back sweetening anyway.

 

[reeflections]

I wonder if your pH meter is not working correctly, or your buffering solution is off. What does the wine taste like? If the pH is below 3.0 you should be able to taste a strong acid bite. I realize that TA and pH are not the same thing, but they are not unrelated.

I keep thinking that too but it actually taste pretty good, albeit sweet. Certainly not too acidic. I guess I should get some new buffer solutions to try.

 

[reeflections]

The only thing that I don't see mentioned so far is racking. There could simple be to much C02 in solution. I would rack it and let it sit for a few more days.

One other thing to note here is sweet cherry is a lot harder to ferment then sour cherry juice. That is just my observation with trying sweet cherry juice. I've had similar ferments using sweet cherry so I now try and stay with just tart or sour cherries.

Well I did put a sample in the test glass and shake it up a lot and got the same S.G.. Plus, I was worried about it sitting in the open bucket so long without fermenting so yesterday I racked it to a 6 gal carboy with AIO vacuum pump. Same S.G. today.

Yes I have done tart cherry in the past and I have the juice to do it next. Just wanted to compare.

 

[Rembee]

Well in that case, I would let it sit under an airlock for 4 to 6 weeks and allow it to stabilize before revisiting it. I would not add anything else to it during this time. It may or may not start fermentation again. Only time will tell.

 

[reeflections]

Actually, after tasting it, I think I could live with it as is. But I probably will try @BernardSmith and @salcoco method first. If adding some of the wine to existing fermenting sugar water kills it, I'll still have the remainder.

What really bugs me is that I don't know why. That means what ever happened could happen again.

 

[Rembee]

As I stated earlier, sweet cherry juice, for what ever reason is not easy to ferment. It has given me and others on here problems of 1 sort or another. I have had much better success with tart or sour cherries with minimal frozen sweet cherries. They may only make up 25% of my must. The rest being tart or sour.

 

[heatherd]

I have had issues if my yeast is cold when pitching (MLB too) so I'd pitch another EC1118 that's at room temperature.

 

[Scooter68]

20/20 hindsight here but I would try to make sure that you give any batch an overnight rest before pitching the yeast. In other words, get things where you want them as far as pH, SG, and Volume, then let it sit overnight before pitching the yeast. You may have be doing this already but I almost had a mess on my hands. Adjusted for TOO much acid and let it sit overnight. Next morning too LOW acidity and had to correct back with acid blend. I thought I undershot but goofed. Luckily I caught it and fixed it but tweeked my nose and bruised my pride having to go back and forth.

 

[winemaker81]

@reeflections, heat the wine. A temperature of 68 to 72 F is generally good, but if the yeast is not eating, a boost may help. Put it in a warmer place, around 80 F, or use a heater belt. That may help.

As for why? Sorry, but as the wise old owl said, "The world may never know." Yeast is a living organism and it's going to react to the factors of its environment and do its own thing. We don't necessarily know or understand all those factors.

A commercial winemaker told me (this is a paraphrase): "We don't make wine. It makes itself. We do our best to guide it."

Sometimes we do everything right and the wine doesn't cooperate. In this case, the wine may be sweeter than you want, but if it doesn't ferment further, you will still have a wine that can be enjoyed. Count this as a victory. Positive thinking!

 

[Michael T]

Could there be something wrong with your acid blend?

 

[Scooter68]

Could there be something wrong with your acid blend?

That's sort of what I was wondering - Perhaps one of his additives is not what the label says or of poor quality. Acid blends, in my limited experience, seem to work quickly. Calcium Carbonate act and affects wine much more slowly. Perhaps the blend contained an acid variety that did not sit well with those little yeasty critters.


(Random note: The main material in common drywall mud is Calcium Carbonate - obviously not food grade, but; it always gives me pause when I have to consider using it to correct the acidity in my wine. )