Syrah/Primitivo Big Day

[CDrew]

If you've been following this thread, you know I've been thinking the amount of oak was too much. Way too much. Tonight I can say, all is good.

I'm tasting the 2018 Primitivo tonight at 2am. I just got home from work, so it's OK. The oak has FINALLY become ok. And in fact the wine is pretty good. Still has some tannin that needs to settle down, but the overly harsh oak has died down. By 2 years it should be worthy of the rotation.

 

[jonathan1500]

If you've been following this thread, you know I've been thinking the amount of oak was too much. Way too much. Tonight I can say, all is good.

I'm tasting the 2018 Primitivo tonight at 2am. I just got home from work, so it's OK. The oak has FINALLY become ok. And in fact the wine is pretty good. Still has some tannin that needs to settle down, but the overly harsh oak has died down. By 2 years it should be worthy of the rotation.

View attachment 61005

So do you think you under-oaked 2019 now?

 

[CDrew]

So do you think you under-oaked 2019 now?

No, and in fact it tastes great. I think the other mistake of 2018 was using M+ oak. You get some harshness with the +, especially at higher dose levels. Although the M+ is really agreeing with the Petite Sirah I made in 2018.

The 2019 is rounding into a much more balanced set of wines. I used all Stavin cubes at Medium toast. The nice part is, I still have 6 months of bulk aging, and if something needs a touch more oak before bottling, easy enough to adjust up. Stavin even publishes a calculator for that.

And I see it's your first post so welcome!

 

[jonathan1500]

No, and in fact it tastes great. I think the other mistake of 2018 was using M+ oak. You get some harshness with the +, especially at higher dose levels. Although the M+ is really agreeing with the Petite Sirah I made in 2018.

The 2019 is rounding into a much more balanced set of wines. I used all Stavin cubes at Medium toast. The nice part is, I still have 6 months of bulk aging, and if something needs a touch more oak before bottling, easy enough to adjust up. Stavin even publishes a calculator for that.

And I see it's your first post so welcome!

Yes - my first post after just joining earlier this week. I'm studying up before starting in on my first batch in a few months. I have loved this thread and am more than mildly jealous of your grapes (and Land Cruisers). Any recommendations on equipment must-have's for an upstart?

 

[CDrew]

Just to update the 2018 vintage, I'm tasting the "normal" non-reserve 2018 Syrah tonight. The "reserve" has less oak. The harsh oak I was worried about is fading fast. The legs in the glass are nice and it's great tasting wine. I'm very pleased. By Fall, it may be mellowed enough for regular cosumption. It should be good for years.

At this point, I'm happy with all the wines of 2018. The Petite Syrah is very good. It can mellow a bit, but it's good. The Syrah is really coming around. It's good, headed to excellent. The Primitivo is also mellowing a bit. It needs more time to overcome the oak, but prospects are good.

If anything, I have to say that enzymes and clean ferments are your friends. Oak, is a mixed blessing. You need some, not too much. It's easy to go over. Best to go less than you think, and adjust later. The 2019 vintage for me, with more nuanced oak flavors is better, but still a year away from regular consumption.

The learning for me, is that dense powerful wine flavors like petite syrah and syrah can handle more oak. Less tannic wines like Primitivo need much less oak. Great learning here for me.

 

[CDrew]

Drinking the 2018 Petite Sirah tonight. It's maturing into a really nice wine. The oak is there but well integrated, the fruit is there, and all around it's great. Likely not super long legged, but for the next few years this is definitely in play. I still have 5 cases so this one should be around awhile.

Funny, I expected too much oak (the theme in 2018) but this is good and headed to better. I'll taste again in 6 months and expect continued improvement.

 

[bluecrab]

@CDrew I've enjoyed reading this thread. Do you remember how much oak you added per gallon in 2018 and 2019? Also, what kind of oak (American M+ cubes, etc.) I only get one chance a year to tweak my winemaking. Sharing your experience is greatly appreciated.

 

[CDrew]

For 2018 I added on MoreWine's published recommendation 2.5 oz of Hungarian M+ cubes per 5 gallons. Especially at first, that was way too much. For 2019 I switched to French Medium cubes, and used the StaVin calculator and went for 25-35% new oak, which ended up being about 1/2 my previous addition. This is much more satisfactory. Doing the same for 2020 though I'm adjusting based on which grape variety-Syrah gets a bit more, Sangiovese gets much less. I'm still figuring this out too, especially since barrels just are not practical for me.

 

[bluecrab]

@CDrew Did you mean to say 2.5 oz per five gallons?

"MoreWine! recommends using: 2 to 2.5 ounces of oak cubes per 5 gallons of liquid wine (not must). More can always be added later, if needed."
[https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/oakinfopaper09.pdf]

 

[CDrew]

@CDrew Did you mean to say 2.5 oz per five gallons?

"MoreWine! recommends using: 2 to 2.5 ounces of oak cubes per 5 gallons of liquid wine (not must). More can always be added later, if needed."
[https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/oakinfopaper09.pdf]

Yes, and I went with the high end of the recommendations. It's worked out ok in the big wines like the Syrah and Petite Sirah, but it's too much for the Primitivo. It's gradually getting better, but I'm not making that mistake again.

 

[CDrew]

Just to update the 2018 vintage, I'm tasting the "normal" non-reserve 2018 Syrah tonight. The "reserve" has less oak. The harsh oak I was worried about is fading fast. The legs in the glass are nice and it's great tasting wine. I'm very pleased. By Fall, it may be mellowed enough for regular consumption. It should be good for years.

I have not tasted the "non-reserve" 2018 syrah since June, but I'm having it tonight with a Thai curry. (weird combo, I know).

I'm putting this Syrah in the regular rotation. It's surprising how much better it is now than 5 months ago. The oak has fully integrated itself and I no longer even taste the original campfire quality that had me so down. But the fruit has come back to the fore. Some tannin is still there. Now that needs to fade a little bit. Heh, heh, I have 5 more cases! So this at least, is a 2018 success. It only took 26 months. I can see drinking this over 3-4 years just to see what happens.

And that has been the most interesting thing about home wine making. It seems that commercial wine is released when good, and doesn't change that much. But home wine, because we start tasting it early, is often harsh and then gets good only after we have despaired it never will, or have already consumed most of the vintage. We should probably make the wine and then not taste for 4 years or so. Only then are the results revealed.

I'm just hoping the Primitivo from 2018 follows this path. It got the same oak, it is still has too much oak. I have a lot of it, maybe 6 more cases. But the oak needs to mellow still. Maybe by 2022 it will be ready for the rotation!

 

[CDrew]

Interesting, but the 2018 Syrah gets better and better. I've not tasted in awhile but having it tonight with a Thai soup. We love Thai cooking. Dang, it's good. The bad oak elements are gone in the background.

 

[Ajmassa]

Yeah I remember hearing something once about wine improving with age.

Looks like the story checks out.

 

[CDrew]

I have to say, I am having the Primitivo from 2018 tonight. I've tasted too much oak for way too long. But I've not tried it in months. Tonight, it's good. The acid is finally coming to the forefront not the oak. Dang, you have to be patient with wine. It still has too much oak, but not by much. I may have to drink the whole bottle to make sure. Anyway, I'm much less despondent over the 2018 oaking debacle. But this is a cautionary tale. Keep the oak foot print light.