Tannins - Know when and why to add them.

[manvsvine]

Since this seems to have been well received by most , I'll continue .

Scott labs sells 6 differnt tannins just for yeast fermentation stage , plus 5 that can be used for cellaring or finnishing. so a winemaker has a lot of choice , my advice is use a low to moderate dose and match character to grape type and condition .


with fermentation tannins some options may be (only suggestions, make up your own mind)
for under ripe, american or hybrid red grapes , I'd use a bolder tannin, probably 100% wood extract. I like FT rouge for this , its also great for big new world style reds like california cab.

for pinot noir I might use oak chips or dust ( the subtlest option for tannin addition is oak dust or chips ) or grape skin based tannins for subtler effect , FT rouge SOFT or UVAtan soft.

Zinfandel ,syrah , sangiovese , you could go either way . I like UVA tan , maybe vr supra .

read the product descriptions , you've got lots of choices , its even possible to split your ferments and use one type of tannin in one fermenter and something else or none on the other and blend them back together when you go to barrel, this creats a layered effect and more complex wine.

those of you already doing differnt yeasts in different fermenters would find this a natural next step.

all this said , with my own wines I don't always use tannins as part of my wine plan, if I'm trying to make a more european style wine ( I love french wines) I don't use tannins , I'll use medium toast french oak chips or dust or maybe nothing . But if trying to make a big monster bold new world style red , then Ft Rouge goes in the primary in a medium dose.

just to really shake things up , and show you that there are so many options for a winemaker .
last fall I made cab sauv , merlot and cab franc , not yet blended but mlf is finnished

but these will be blended as they co to barrel . I used enxymes , otpti red and ft rouge in the cab , enzymes and no tannins or oak in the merlot and no enzymes but american and french oak dust and optired (dust tames the vegital character cab franc may have) in the cab franc.

one barrel ( American ) will be 70% cab , 20% merlot and 10% cab Franc

the other (Hungarian) 70% merlot , 20% cab and 10% cab franc.

this will create two complex , very different wines when it comes time to bottle.

somewhere between new and old world style , the cab forward one more new and the merlot forward one a little old world but neither is 100% in either camp, kinda mid atlantic.


TMI?

 

[Pumpkinman]

manvsvine,
Nope keep on going, I agree 100% as tannins are not needed for all wine, we've been playing around with the idea of making a few blends as well, this is where things get real interesting.
Sounds like a few nice Bordeaux blends, I'm going to make a super Tuscan using the Sangiovese, Cab Sav and Merlot, this fall I hope to be able to purchase grapes to make a GSM, my wife and I fell in love with this blend.
I believe that you mentioned that you were a wine educator? I'd like to hear more! Your knowledge is a great addition, thanks for sharing.

 

[geek]

good discussions.....keep them coming..!!

 

[Deezil]

a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins at 1/3 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.

its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .

yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.

the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.

I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions .

Would it be fair to say that fermentation tannins, alongside the other pre-fermentation and fermentation additions you mentioned, are affecting the "base layer" of the wine, to which you can add on-to later with cellaring and finishing tannins, among other products?

I guess I dont see the cellaring and finishing tannins so much as covering up flaws I didn't notice previously or errors I may have made along the way, as I see them a chance to create additional layers of flavors/sensations. Maybe I'm looking for more understanding on why the importance that's put on getting the fermentation-stage additions dialed in, isn't carried through the following (cellaring, finishing) stages - is it just because if you've got it right during the ferment, that tweaks/layers later on simply arent needed? Do they over-complicate the senses in some way?

Most of my experience so far lies in fruit wines and meads, which by nature are hard to over-complicate so my wine making style has tended more towards an angle of creating as many layers in the wine as possible.. I'm not sure if there's a point at which, with grapes, that layering effect becomes a negative.

I don't disagree that finnishing and cellaring tannins can bring a wine around.
that is kind of my point . finnishing and cellaring tannins are used as an intervention when you taste a wine durring these stages and find it lacking a profile you want, but its not something I would intentionaly build into my wineplan, prefering proactive to reactive measures.

...

I still stand by the idea that early tannin additions are preferable to late corrective additions . if you focus your efforts on the wine in its embrionic state durring yeast fermentation , it won't need braces and a nose job type tannin intervention later. Don't over do it though , go with a moderate dose at the low to midpoint of the manufacturers reccomendations. With hybrids and really green fruit you can go a little higher , maybe 2/3 of the manufacturers reccomendation.

I should highlight that post yeast fermentation additions can result in a much more astringent wine if you add too much. such an addition can stand out much more compared to a fermentation stage addition.

if you need to do a cellaring or finnishing stage addition (I'm not saying that these are not important tools if you need them) , I reccomend adding half as much as you think you need , let it age for a month , then reasses and add more if you need to.
if you are heavy handed with a late stage tannin addition , blending in a less tannic wine is the most effective relief. long ageing in a barrel, ie 18- 24 months also helps as the micro ox has a softening effect on tannins.

I would agree with the assessment that post-fermentation tannin additions are a little more "bold", and that it generally takes less to get the impact than one would first think - adding half & allowing it to impact the wine before adding the second half is definitely sound advice.

I just cant see Lallemand going through the trouble of creating so many post-fermentation tannin formulations, only to cover up flaws or fruit imperfections. Not trying to nag, but what's the driving force behind looking at cellaring and finishing tannins as 'reactive' as opposed to 'proactive' measures?

the best place to find the latest on wine processing aids like tannins and SIY (other than the manufacturers ) is the two main industry publications.

http://www.winesandvines.com/

http://www.winebusiness.com/

they both have searchable databases and loads of articles , they are however much more technical than winemaker mag but anyone with grade 10 science and a basic knowledge of winemaking should be fine.

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

scott labs 2013 fermentation hand book is also a great resource.

something I didn't discuss was criteria for selecting tannin products , some are wood extracts , some are combined wood and grape skin extracts and some are skin only extracts .

Thanks for the links; I've yet to locate the articles on Wine and Vines, but I've been subscribed to WBM for quite a while now; definitely a worthwhile magazine to check out

The Scotts Lab Handbook, for anyone who didn't catch it the first time, is definitely worth the read; a few times.

Can I talk you into expanding on what the different types of tannin products that you mentioned, bring to the table - when are they best used / to reduce or enhance what characteristics the best? This is one area that is actually still rather foggy to me.

I see in one of the following posts, you hint that oak dust & chips, or grape seed tannins have a more subtle effect than FT Rouge - which is a wood extract?

for under ripe, american or hybrid red grapes , I'd use a bolder tannin, probably 100% wood extract. I like FT rouge for this , its also great for big new world style reds like california cab.

for pinot noir I might use oak chips or dust ( the subtlest option for tannin addition is oak dust or chips ) or grape skin based tannins for subtler effect , FT rouge SOFT or UVAtan soft.

....

read the product descriptions , you've got lots of choices , its even possible to split your ferments and use one type of tannin in one fermenter and something else or none on the other and blend them back together when you go to barrel, this creats a layered effect and more complex wine.

Is this last part, your ideal way to create a layering complexity in your wines, when a situation arises that that is what you desire?

From the sounds of it, you have a lot of experience with red grapes, I'm just trying to apply the knowledge to bridge the gap to the fruit wines & meads/melomel world.

 

[geek]

also, I think it may be good to define what a tannin is (I know there's Google out there....), what is the definition of it and when by taste you think you really need to add it.
I need to re-read the posts again in case I missed that, but all in all that info may be a good idea to be defined as detailed as possible for all of those, including me, getting into the knowing of tannin.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Tannin tastes dry and astringent, I can't tell you if you need to add tannins, that is up to you and your preference in wine.

 

[manvsvine]

" Would it be fair to say that fermentation tannins, alongside the other pre-fermentation and fermentation additions you mentioned, are affecting the "base layer" of the wine, to which you can add on-to later with cellaring and finishing tannins, among other products?

I guess I dont see the cellaring and finishing tannins so much as covering up flaws I didn't notice previously or errors I may have made along the way, as I see them a chance to create additional layers of flavors/sensations. Maybe I'm looking for more understanding on why the importance that's put on getting the fermentation-stage additions dialed in, isn't carried through the following (cellaring, finishing) stages - is it just because if you've got it right during the ferment, that tweaks/layers later on simply arent needed? Do they over-complicate the senses in some way?

Most of my experience so far lies in fruit wines and meads, which by nature are hard to over-complicate so my wine making style has tended more towards an angle of creating as many layers in the wine as possible.. I'm not sure if there's a point at which, with grapes, that layering effect becomes a negative. "

Durring the fermentation stage you have the grape skins, pulp, seeds in the fermenter with the juice. this is your opportunity to make the fruit shine , the trick is to maximise the natural gifts the grape has to offer. so you use enzymes, 12 hours after crush ( complex blends that target the cell structure of the skins and get the grapes to release more flavour , colour and aromatics not old school generic pectic enzyme) you use a moderate to low dose of tannins ( be it oak dust or tannin product) to lock in and stabilise the natural tannin , color and flavours so whats in the fermenter makes it into the final wine. ( add 24 to 72 hours after enzymes)

you use yeast nutrient and maybe a yeast product like optired to keep the yeast healthy so it will ferment to dryness , not produce any off flavours , VA or H2S . Again this is to let the natural fruit shine through .

what the winemaker has to do is let the fruit show its best without masking it to the point where the additions speak more than the grapes do.

this takes expirience , I can't teach you that nor can any book . but as a starting point I'd focus on keeping the yeast healthy using nutrient .
then try using some oak dust in the primary , learn what that does.
and if you feel you want to try some tannins , start with the minimum dose .

I think it was Daniel Pambianachi who said that your additions should be like a makeup on a beutiful woman. If done right you won't know they are there , it just enhances the natural beauty.

the focus on fermentation stage is so that these additions are there when the yeast and the grapes are and able to be metabolised and integrated by the live yeast and also so that they are there to interact with the grapes at the time when the grapes are releasing their gifts into the wine. if making ajuice pail with no skins you still have the benefit of the active yeast so I would still focus on the yeast fermentation stage for your enhancements.

it only happens once this magical combination of events. you don't want to miss it.

as for the companies producing products for post fermentation , well all these products are developed for the commercial wine industry to sell more wine. post fermentation tannin additions are to improve a wine that has holes in its profile , so it sells better . they are also often used to save money in a barrel program , to allow wineries to use 3 or 4 year old barrels and use ageing tannin additions to make up for the tannin that has leached out of the older barrels durring previous fills.
there are commerical drivers in winemaking.

the biggest selling wines in the world don't contain the best grapes , they make 5 million cases of one brand from mass produced grapes , highly irrigated and feritlised with maximum crop loads. and every single bottle of those 5 million cases has to taste excatly like all the others and the same as they did the year before. The number one selling wine in north america is yellow tail , buy a bottle and try it. its the most manipulated product ( I won't call it wine) I know, to me it tastes like sugar, tannin plus and a factory. try it you'll see what I mean , its a case of the additives showing more than the grapes do. I can't tell their shiraz from their merlot or cab .


the better the grapes the less corrective tweaking is needed.

as for fruit and mead wines, well I would focus on keeping the yeast healthy and using nutrient but tannin additions may very well have no place in the making of most fruit and mead wines.
I don't know , I rarely make fruit wines and I have never tasted a mead I liked so I've never made it. but it makes sence that not everything develped for grapes translates to fruit and mead.
not everything for red wines translates to whites . there are tannin products specifically for white wines but I never use them . maybe these would work better for fruit and mead , I don't know .

but I would think that enzymes to extract the best out of the fruit and inactivated yeasts like booster blanc or noblesse (to improve aromatics and mouthfeel)would have some application in fruit wine and mead.

 

[SoCalGuy]

My Pinot noir has been bulk aging for 2 months now. It is a cellar craft kit. I added French oak med toast blocks with it. To me it just seems flat. Not a lot of body to it. I am planning on bulk aging for 4 to 6 months and then I will go to bottle. Any suggestions?

 

[Pumpkinman]

What is the TA level, some times a little tartaric acid will liven things up.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Not sure. My first kit so all I really know is getting the SG. I take it that makes a big difference. I will read on that more.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Ok, got it. They say with the wine kits that they already have it all figured out. Now, for me. I don't like the way it is. What I see is that it being a Pinot noir the TA should be around 0.60%-0.70%. I am going to go pick up a titration kit and see what I have. Because reading on it sounds very much like the issue that I am having.

 

[Dino466]

Pumpkinman, thanks for the thread - I think I understand more why and how and when. I never would try adding anything to a kit - not real sure about my skills - but this thread has made me think about trying ( when I think it needs it). Mansvine - very interesting. Always good advice on this forum.

 

[seth8530]

Good thread,I think I might pick up some tannins from Scott labs to add to my Pinot Rose.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Dino466, I'm happy that you like the info!

 

[Geronimo]

I never would try adding anything to a kit

I've added post-fermentation tannins to kit wines, but not fermentation tannins. I can't imagine how you'd know how much to add, or what kind.

 

[manvsvine]

Well every additive comes with a manufactures recommended amount.

For fermentation tannins ft rouge is a great all rounder and is easy to get . Morewine sells it in small amounts http://morewinemaking.com/products/tannin-ft-rouge.html

The recommended dose is .8 to 1.9 grams per gallon. For a kit you will probably want to go with the low end of the recommended range .

More wine gives some helpful information with each product

How Fermentation Tannins Work

Designed specifically for North American red wine fermentations, Scott'Tan FT Rouge is composed of exotic wood and chestnut tannins. These highly reactive tannins bind with anthocyanins (color compounds) in the first 3-4 days of fermentation. If sufficient natural tannins are not present in must, anthocyanins may precipitate, resulting in a loss of color. Using an enzyme like Lallzyme EX in conjunction with FT Rouge can enhance this binding of color. The continual bonding going on throughout the ferment will also improve the mid palate structure and help either significantly reduce or eliminate vegetal/herbaceous characters. Tannin additions at this early stage prove to be most efficient and are better integrated into the wine.

 

[Pumpkinman]

After putting a wine through Redulees to correct an issue, I found that it had stripped the tannic astringency that I look for in this particular wine, I was fairly unimpressed with the wine at that point, I added Tannin Riche in small doses approx 4 weeks apart, the last addition I used Tannin Riche Extra, and waited 6 weeks before sampling it, I found the desired level that I was after and bottled the wine, now approx. 3 months after bottling, the wine not only tastes great, but it is as good as the commercial varieties that I've purchased, these usually run between $40 on the low end to upwards of $65 -$90 or more on the high end, so far it has been a crowd pleaser, when decanted for 45 mins to an hr, it opens up real nice.
It has been stated before, but make sure that you start off with small doses, you can always add more.

 

[sour_grapes]

each manufacturer will have their version of Sacrificial/Fermentation Tannins, Cellaring Tannins and Finishing Tannins, the most important part in my opinion is to stay away from generic tannins that are listed as "wine tannins" or "tannic acid"

Man, there are tannins and there are tannins! As noted earlier, I bought generic tannins (from chestnut tree galls) before Tom started this thread. The first time I used it, I stirred my dose into a half of a coffee cup of water. Before adding to the wine, I took a little sip. Ugh ughh, ptoooey, spit, argh, yuck. . I couldn't get it out of my mouth fast enough. I knew it would be bitter/astringet/gross, but it exceeded my expectations by a lot.

In the meantime, I bought Tannin Rouge, Tannin Complex, and Tannin Riche. I have only used Tannin Riche so far. The other day I mixed up a half coffee cup of Tannin Riche. (To be fair, this was a much lower dose than the generic tannin batch.) Well, of course I took a small sip. Hmmm, not bad. A bit bitter and astringent, but also with cocoa notes, coffee, vanilla, spice, a hint of sweetness, mmmmmm, it was kinda nice!

 

[Pumpkinman]

Paul,
This is great news! When you finally taste the difference between the generic tannins and the higher quality tannins, you open up a whole new world! this is one of the main reasons that I've wrote about this tannins, in my opinion, there was a lot of talk about blindly dumping large amounts of generic tannins into wine. These higher quality tannins require fractions of the amount that were being added to render much different results.
The Tannin Riche Extra also adds a hint of coconut as well.
My hat is off to you for trying them out!

 

[Matty_Kay]

Pumpkinman- how far out before bottling do you typically add the tannin riche?

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