jamesngalveston
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good for u julie,...it needed a sticky.....great info.
Tannins - Know when and why to add them.
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StoneCreek
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Awesome article Tom. Just the info I've been looking for and a thank you to Deezil for pointing it out. It would seem I have some more learning to do tomorrow. Thanks for the tannin links.
Sacrificial tannins-They are not meant to add tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.
this isn't really accurate , the yeast fermentation stage tannins are not truely sacraficial but they do add a lot of structure to the wine. there is some bonding with proteins from the added tannins that don't make it into the final wine ( 5-15% of the addition may precipitate out of the wine) , I guess this could be called sacraficial but this is actualy the minority of the impact. more of a side action than principle benefit. and not all products have a strong action or sacraficial effect.
yeast fermentation stage tannin additions bind with the two types of grape tannins naturally present , the skin and seed tannins and also the pigments of the grapes.
natural tannins from skins and seeds tend to have short molecular chains , they are unstable and want to form longer chains to become stable . this can happen naturaly , some natural binding happens durring ferment and some can happen as the wine ages , thats why ten year old reds are smoother than 1 year old reds.
but adding tannin in the yeast fermentation allows all the short chain tannins in the ferment to find a partner early and form long chains , long chains equals smooth and stable.
with the skin tannins the longer chains that are formed are similar to polimerisation , this improves tannin stability so they don't drop out later as the wine ages , ever had a filtered bottle of red wine later form a uniform coating inside the bottle not just on the bottom. this is tannin instability . very common with super ripe central valley grapes. syrah , zinfandel and cab sauv are particularly vulnerable at high levels of ripeness and matching high PH.
these longer chain tannin formations also improve mouth feel and reduce sharpness especialy if the fruit is a little green because of being under ripe or young vine or hybrid . vegital flavours are also surpressed, this is important if you get any green stem or leaf peices in the must, most basic crussher stemmers leave a little stem jacks in the must. nice brown jacks is ok in moderation but green ones can increase harshness , its almost impossible to pick all these out but tannin or oak dust can mitigate the impact.
the formation of these longer chain bonds are also very important late in yeast ferment as the alcohol level rises and seed tannins start to extract . seed tannins , especially if the seeds are at all green can make a wine very harsh . a tannin addition to reduce the unbound short chain natural tannins followed by delestage seed removal is a key strategy in reduceing rough character .
a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins at 1/3 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.
its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .
yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.
the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.
I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions .
Central Valley , hot region , high crop loads , high brix high PH , syrah , cab , zin , sangiovese , would be no brainers.
as would any red hybrid or very cold finger lakes type region.
after that , experience and taste will guide you , if you know you like big tannic reds , add tannins durring yeast fermentation.
These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.
this isn't really accurate , the yeast fermentation stage tannins are not truely sacraficial but they do add a lot of structure to the wine. there is some bonding with proteins from the added tannins that don't make it into the final wine ( 5-15% of the addition may precipitate out of the wine) , I guess this could be called sacraficial but this is actualy the minority of the impact. more of a side action than principle benefit. and not all products have a strong action or sacraficial effect.
yeast fermentation stage tannin additions bind with the two types of grape tannins naturally present , the skin and seed tannins and also the pigments of the grapes.
natural tannins from skins and seeds tend to have short molecular chains , they are unstable and want to form longer chains to become stable . this can happen naturaly , some natural binding happens durring ferment and some can happen as the wine ages , thats why ten year old reds are smoother than 1 year old reds.
but adding tannin in the yeast fermentation allows all the short chain tannins in the ferment to find a partner early and form long chains , long chains equals smooth and stable.
with the skin tannins the longer chains that are formed are similar to polimerisation , this improves tannin stability so they don't drop out later as the wine ages , ever had a filtered bottle of red wine later form a uniform coating inside the bottle not just on the bottom. this is tannin instability . very common with super ripe central valley grapes. syrah , zinfandel and cab sauv are particularly vulnerable at high levels of ripeness and matching high PH.
these longer chain tannin formations also improve mouth feel and reduce sharpness especialy if the fruit is a little green because of being under ripe or young vine or hybrid . vegital flavours are also surpressed, this is important if you get any green stem or leaf peices in the must, most basic crussher stemmers leave a little stem jacks in the must. nice brown jacks is ok in moderation but green ones can increase harshness , its almost impossible to pick all these out but tannin or oak dust can mitigate the impact.
the formation of these longer chain bonds are also very important late in yeast ferment as the alcohol level rises and seed tannins start to extract . seed tannins , especially if the seeds are at all green can make a wine very harsh . a tannin addition to reduce the unbound short chain natural tannins followed by delestage seed removal is a key strategy in reduceing rough character .
a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins at 1/3 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.
its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .
yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.
the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.
I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions .
Central Valley , hot region , high crop loads , high brix high PH , syrah , cab , zin , sangiovese , would be no brainers.
as would any red hybrid or very cold finger lakes type region.
after that , experience and taste will guide you , if you know you like big tannic reds , add tannins durring yeast fermentation.
Last edited:
Pumpkinman
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manvsvine, As much as I appreciate your in depth knowledge of tannins, when first posting an article that is meant to give our members a general understanding of what, why and when to use tannins, the scientific approach would have been a bit much.
To say that the info is inaccurate is a bit out of line, They are referenced as sacrificial because these tannins are sacrificial in nature. They are not meant to ADD tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
I have to respectfully disagree with
Thanks for the info.
To say that the info is inaccurate is a bit out of line, They are referenced as sacrificial because these tannins are sacrificial in nature. They are not meant to ADD tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
I have to respectfully disagree with
, I've used tannins to bring a wine around while bulk aging many times.
Thanks for the info.
I don't disagree that finnishing and cellaring tannins can bring a wine around.
that is kind of my point . finnishing and cellaring tannins are used as an intervention when you taste a wine durring these stages and find it lacking a profile you want, but its not something I would intentionaly build into my wineplan, prefering proactive to reactive measures.
adding tannin durring yeast fermentation is not sacraficial , but structural , they do add tannin to the wine , they add the second half of the tannin chain locking the natural tannin in. they are integral to the tannin structure of the wine.
if used as directed in the manufacturers reccomended dose, they don't primarily sacrifice themselves and precipitate out in the lees ,the opposite is true they form complete long chain polimerised chemical bonds, which are stable over the long term. they actualy prevent the natural tannins they have bonded with from precipitating out as sediment.
I still stand by the idea that early tannin additions are preferable to late corrective additions . if you focus your efforts on the wine in its embrionic state durring yeast fermentation , it won't need braces and a nose job type tannin intervention later. Don't over do it though , go with a moderate dose at the low to midpoint of the manufacturers reccomendations. With hybrids and really green fruit you can go a little higher , maybe 2/3 of the manufacturers reccomendation.
I should highlight that post yeast fermentation additions can result in a much more astringent wine if you add too much. such an addition can stand out much more compared to a fermentation stage addition.
if you need to do a cellaring or finnishing stage addition (I'm not saying that these are not important tools if you need them) , I reccomend adding half as much as you think you need , let it age for a month , then reasses and add more if you need to.
if you are heavy handed with a late stage tannin addition , blending in a less tannic wine is the most effective relief. long ageing in a barrel, ie 18- 24 months also helps as the micro ox has a softening effect on tannins.
that is kind of my point . finnishing and cellaring tannins are used as an intervention when you taste a wine durring these stages and find it lacking a profile you want, but its not something I would intentionaly build into my wineplan, prefering proactive to reactive measures.
adding tannin durring yeast fermentation is not sacraficial , but structural , they do add tannin to the wine , they add the second half of the tannin chain locking the natural tannin in. they are integral to the tannin structure of the wine.
if used as directed in the manufacturers reccomended dose, they don't primarily sacrifice themselves and precipitate out in the lees ,the opposite is true they form complete long chain polimerised chemical bonds, which are stable over the long term. they actualy prevent the natural tannins they have bonded with from precipitating out as sediment.
I still stand by the idea that early tannin additions are preferable to late corrective additions . if you focus your efforts on the wine in its embrionic state durring yeast fermentation , it won't need braces and a nose job type tannin intervention later. Don't over do it though , go with a moderate dose at the low to midpoint of the manufacturers reccomendations. With hybrids and really green fruit you can go a little higher , maybe 2/3 of the manufacturers reccomendation.
I should highlight that post yeast fermentation additions can result in a much more astringent wine if you add too much. such an addition can stand out much more compared to a fermentation stage addition.
if you need to do a cellaring or finnishing stage addition (I'm not saying that these are not important tools if you need them) , I reccomend adding half as much as you think you need , let it age for a month , then reasses and add more if you need to.
if you are heavy handed with a late stage tannin addition , blending in a less tannic wine is the most effective relief. long ageing in a barrel, ie 18- 24 months also helps as the micro ox has a softening effect on tannins.
Last edited:
Pumpkinman
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Mansvine,
I don't plan on any additions other than what my test results indicate that I might need to balance the wine.
I don't really think that you understand the intent of these articles, at no point did I say that anyone should, by default add tannins to their wine, but since there has been a lot of posts regarding the addition of generic tannins pre fermentation, my intention was to explain tannins and the fact that there are many different tannins that can add to the sensory profile of the wine if used at specific times.
A large portion of WMT members make Kit wine and wine made from juice buckets, these juice buckets can render a flabby wine, with little body and mouthfeel, the addition of tannins is a cost effective, not to mention fairly easy way to add to the wine.
Once again, no one stated that this is the only way to make wine, any wine maker would prefer to be proactive. The goal of the article wasn't to provide what I call "data overload", the goal was to spotlight another tool that can be used to help make a better wine, I've had the opportunity to give presentations for various groups, the one thing that i try to keep in mind is that while you may know every in and out of a selected topic, the group may not, if I start putting "the cart before the horse" and start explaining in depth while the group is just starting to get comfortable with a subject, it will turn some away.
We can call the Sacrificial Tannins, fermentation tannins, I think that you might have taken the word "sacrificial" too literal, this is the term that is used by Winemakermag, Laffort and others, while Scott labs uses "fermentation tannins".
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
I don't plan on any additions other than what my test results indicate that I might need to balance the wine.
I don't really think that you understand the intent of these articles, at no point did I say that anyone should, by default add tannins to their wine, but since there has been a lot of posts regarding the addition of generic tannins pre fermentation, my intention was to explain tannins and the fact that there are many different tannins that can add to the sensory profile of the wine if used at specific times.
A large portion of WMT members make Kit wine and wine made from juice buckets, these juice buckets can render a flabby wine, with little body and mouthfeel, the addition of tannins is a cost effective, not to mention fairly easy way to add to the wine.
Once again, no one stated that this is the only way to make wine, any wine maker would prefer to be proactive. The goal of the article wasn't to provide what I call "data overload", the goal was to spotlight another tool that can be used to help make a better wine, I've had the opportunity to give presentations for various groups, the one thing that i try to keep in mind is that while you may know every in and out of a selected topic, the group may not, if I start putting "the cart before the horse" and start explaining in depth while the group is just starting to get comfortable with a subject, it will turn some away.
We can call the Sacrificial Tannins, fermentation tannins, I think that you might have taken the word "sacrificial" too literal, this is the term that is used by Winemakermag, Laffort and others, while Scott labs uses "fermentation tannins".
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
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I would love to learn more about this. (I just added some cheap, generic chestnut tannins to a fermentation.) Do you have a reference for this information?
the best place to find the latest on wine processing aids like tannins and SIY (other than the manufacturers ) is the two main industry publications.
http://www.winesandvines.com/
http://www.winebusiness.com/
they both have searchable databases and loads of articles , they are however much more technical than winemaker mag but anyone with grade 10 science and a basic knowledge of winemaking should be fine.
http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf
scott labs 2013 fermentation hand book is also a great resource.
something I didn't discuss was criteria for selecting tannin products , some are wood extracts , some are combined wood and grape skin extracts and some are skin only extracts .
Scott labs sells 6 differnt tannins just for yeast fermentation stage , plus 5 that can be used for cellaring or finnishing.
I'll stop short there as I've been made aware I produce scientific data overload for this forum ( a risk any wine educator runs , I guess , a passion for sharing knowledge ) but reading the scott labs book you should get an idea of why and when each of the products are used.
the wines and vines and WBM data bases are good places to learn about the interactions between the various additions , ie enzymes combined with tannins and optired . intersted folks can do theri own research.
http://www.winesandvines.com/
http://www.winebusiness.com/
they both have searchable databases and loads of articles , they are however much more technical than winemaker mag but anyone with grade 10 science and a basic knowledge of winemaking should be fine.
http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf
scott labs 2013 fermentation hand book is also a great resource.
something I didn't discuss was criteria for selecting tannin products , some are wood extracts , some are combined wood and grape skin extracts and some are skin only extracts .
Scott labs sells 6 differnt tannins just for yeast fermentation stage , plus 5 that can be used for cellaring or finnishing.
I'll stop short there as I've been made aware I produce scientific data overload for this forum ( a risk any wine educator runs , I guess , a passion for sharing knowledge ) but reading the scott labs book you should get an idea of why and when each of the products are used.
the wines and vines and WBM data bases are good places to learn about the interactions between the various additions , ie enzymes combined with tannins and optired . intersted folks can do theri own research.
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Pumpkinman
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What part are you wondering why?
Perhaps I shouldn't say I wonder, but I meant that is probably the reasoning why joe uses his tannins in secondary all the times.
I would guess he has learned this way to be most effective for him.
At the end of the day what I see is that some techniques apply more in some cases than others and what may work for one may not work for someone else.
I would guess he has learned this way to be most effective for him.
At the end of the day what I see is that some techniques apply more in some cases than others and what may work for one may not work for someone else.
Pumpkinman
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Geek, Absolutely, this way has worked for him, my only question has been the type of tannin used, I'm use to seeing a few grams per gallon.
his secondary is a restarted yeast fermentation ( he does an amarone style restart with raisins as opposed to an innoculated MLB secondary) this still a yeast fermentation so the active yeast still have an influance on the tannin assimilation , its similar to the way yeast interact with oak dust etc added during yeast ferment.
he uses a generic tannin. the newer fermentation stage tannins have been formulated to be much more soluable than the products of just a few years ago. more souluable equals more reactive and easier to bond with the natural tannins.
finishing and cellaring stage tannin addition comments refer to those added to a wine after all activity has stopped and the wine is biologically stable. usually after racking off the lees & so2 has been added.
he uses a generic tannin. the newer fermentation stage tannins have been formulated to be much more soluable than the products of just a few years ago. more souluable equals more reactive and easier to bond with the natural tannins.
finishing and cellaring stage tannin addition comments refer to those added to a wine after all activity has stopped and the wine is biologically stable. usually after racking off the lees & so2 has been added.
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I found the "sacraficial tannin" refernce in winemaker mag
http://winemakermag.com/1244-red-wine-color-stability-techniques
Bob Peak is a super guy , a bit guilty of over generalisation on the bonding and the term sacraficial tannin is his own , its not an industry term, here is what he said , its not 100% acurate but I can see where Tom is coming from now. Peak has dumbed things down a bit too much, thats why reading multiple sources is helpful at times .
its interesting his reccomendation for tannin addition timeing is the same as mine. not surprising as this is the industry standard , not something either of us came up with. thats why scott labs makes 6 fermentation stage formulations of tannin products.
" When grapes are crushed and soaked, colored pigments called anthocyanins are released into the juice. Some of these combine with grape tannins to form soluble compounds that remain in the wine, providing color. Other reaction products, however, are less soluble and drop out of the wine, taking color with them. Purified tannin products are formulated to provide “sacrificial tannins” that will take the place of grape tannins that otherwise might precipitate. In so doing, they help maintain a higher concentration of the soluble grape tannin/anthocyanin complexes in the developing wine. So as the color is released from the skin cells, with or without added enzymes, the sacrificial tannins help keep the color in solution and maintain its presence on into the finished wine.
Because of the release cycle of the native compounds in grapes, the recommended tannin addition step is at or just after the onset of yeast fermentation. Tannin powder may be sprinkled directly on top of the rising cap and mixed in during the first punchdown of a new red wine fermentation. Use rates can vary widely, so you may need to experiment on your wines for best effects. Typical ranges are from about 50 to 250 g/1,000 pounds of fruit." - Bob Peak - WMM
http://winemakermag.com/1244-red-wine-color-stability-techniques
Bob Peak is a super guy , a bit guilty of over generalisation on the bonding and the term sacraficial tannin is his own , its not an industry term, here is what he said , its not 100% acurate but I can see where Tom is coming from now. Peak has dumbed things down a bit too much, thats why reading multiple sources is helpful at times .
its interesting his reccomendation for tannin addition timeing is the same as mine. not surprising as this is the industry standard , not something either of us came up with. thats why scott labs makes 6 fermentation stage formulations of tannin products.
" When grapes are crushed and soaked, colored pigments called anthocyanins are released into the juice. Some of these combine with grape tannins to form soluble compounds that remain in the wine, providing color. Other reaction products, however, are less soluble and drop out of the wine, taking color with them. Purified tannin products are formulated to provide “sacrificial tannins” that will take the place of grape tannins that otherwise might precipitate. In so doing, they help maintain a higher concentration of the soluble grape tannin/anthocyanin complexes in the developing wine. So as the color is released from the skin cells, with or without added enzymes, the sacrificial tannins help keep the color in solution and maintain its presence on into the finished wine.
Because of the release cycle of the native compounds in grapes, the recommended tannin addition step is at or just after the onset of yeast fermentation. Tannin powder may be sprinkled directly on top of the rising cap and mixed in during the first punchdown of a new red wine fermentation. Use rates can vary widely, so you may need to experiment on your wines for best effects. Typical ranges are from about 50 to 250 g/1,000 pounds of fruit." - Bob Peak - WMM
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StoneCreek
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Wow. Who knew I could learn so much in just a few pages of post. While I truly understand that most of what I read in all the threads here is meant for the average new home wine maker it's nice to see a few post that go over the top. Those that seem like data overload to some draw me in like a fly to fruit. I appreciate that I first read the article by Tom which gave me a better understanding to what manvsvine was trying to convey. I look forward to jumping into all the links provided to additional in depth info with both feet! When it come to information some of us can't get enough. I know it's not for everyone but we all play in the same sandbox.
Pumpkinman
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David,
I'm happy that you found the article interesting, I want to thank manvsvine for going deeper into the subject, if this can help to understand why and when to add tannins, it will help us to become better wine makers.
I'm happy that you found the article interesting, I want to thank manvsvine for going deeper into the subject, if this can help to understand why and when to add tannins, it will help us to become better wine makers.
TomK-B
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This is a great thread! Packed full of information that I'm feeling in need of right about now. I've been involved in home wine making for three and a half years now. To this point I've mad only kits from the full range of price levels. But I have in mind to branch out during the next 12 months. I've actually already begun experimenting with alternate yeast and other additives in my wines. And I intend to continue this during 2014. In addition, I'm going to experiment with fermenting in stainless steel rather than plastic and see what difference that makes. And I'm planning to try my hand with at least one frozen must bucket and in September I'm going to get some fresh grapes and try a batch from those. So, this discussion on tannins is very timely. I plan to read and reread this thread and the links you all have provided so that I can continue to develop my wine making skills. Thanks so much, Tom!!!
Deezil
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Just wanted to say thank you, as I can tell by reading this over the past few days that you've taken some time to go back through this thread and add all kinds of extra tidbits, and information. I know, having done it before myself, that it takes time and patience to make sure you get it right. Thanks again.
Feel free to 'data overload' me at any/every turn, I tend to thrive on it. It might take me a minute to respond personally, but that's only because I enjoy the learning process as much as I enjoy making better wines.
Pumpkinman, thanks for starting this thread and kicking off what appears to continue to be, a rather in-depth lesson into the 'in's and out's' of tannins.
Pumpkinman
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Manley, I agree, I enjoy learning, any info that I can get to help me going in the right direction is greatly appreciated.
