Terroir Yeast

[winemanden]

Not sure where this should go? There has been a lot of controversy as to whether Terroir exists. I only make Country Style wines myself but I thought you grape winemakers might find it interesting.
This is just a snippet from the German Wein Plus web page.

Individual "terroir yeast strains" do not exist in vineyards. This is what French scientists have discovered. Isabelle Masneuf-Pomarède, oenologist and professor at Bordeaux Sciences Agro, says: "Saccharomyces cerevisiae do occur in vineyards - but only on one in 1,000 berries. You can select them and propagate them for fermentation. However, the concept of a 'terroir yeast' in the sense of a yeast strain that occurs exclusively in a particular plot or vintage cannot be scientifically proven."

Patrick Lucas, professor of oenology at the Institute of Viticulture and O enology (ISVV) at the University of Bordeaux, refers to a study by Jackson Peter at the University of Strasbourg. He studied more than 1,000 strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae from different vineyard sites in Europe, North America and Asia. This study also clearly proves that there is no difference between the strains based on their geographical origin

 

[balatonwine]

This is a click bait article of no value. It does not even provide a link to any study making this claim.

I suspect, your source is promoting a gross misunderstanding of this article from UC Davis (Diversity of Wine Yeasts):

https://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/indu...microbiology/yeast-mold/diversity-wine-yeasts
That is, diversity, around the world certainly exists. And that diversity, that Terroir, exists. And Saccaromyces is not the only player. And while there is indeed a "remarkably consistent progression of yeast species" during the wine making process, that is not the same thing as saying Terroir does not exist. To understand the difference, read the UC Davis article to start. There are plenty of other articles, and peer reviewed journal publications you can read from there if you wish.

 

[winemanden]

This is a click bait article of no value. It does not even provide a link to any study making this claim.

I suspect, your source is promoting a gross misunderstanding of this article from UC Davis (Diversity of Wine Yeasts):

https://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/indu...microbiology/yeast-mold/diversity-wine-yeasts
That is, diversity, around the world certainly exists. And that diversity, that Terroir, exists. And Saccaromyces is not the only player. And while there is indeed a "remarkably consistent progression of yeast species" during the wine making process, that is not the same thing as saying Terroir does not exist. To understand the difference, read the UC Davis article to start. There are plenty of other articles, and peer reviewed journal publications you can read from there if you wish.

You may well be right. I wasn't making ANY claims for it, I just put it on as something of interest. Wein Plus send me emails with links to the latest news. Because I don't pay a yearly subscription I can only read the first two or three paragraphs. I don't make grape wines I can't see the point of paying to see the full articles.
Here's another paragraph I just found.

According to Isabelle Masneuf-Pomarède, the concept that microorganisms in the vineyard have an influence on wine quality arose from speculation in the course of American research. "From the finding that microbial communities varied depending on the growing area, the authors hypothesised that the microorganisms present in the soil and on the plant played an important role in the sensory characteristics of the wine." This turned out to be wrong, he says. Patrick Lucas points out that "winemakers who declare that they work with local or terroir yeasts are not arguing impurely. But fermentation microorganisms are not fixed to a particular region. We have recently seen how quickly a virus can be transported around the world. The same is true for yeast and bacteria. The entire European scientific community agrees with us".

Just as a matter of interest The German 'Wein Plus' magazine is a respected journal throughout Europe!

 

[balatonwine]

Here's another paragraph I just found.

According to Isabelle Masneuf-Pomarède,

Did you notice that again, "Isabelle" is linking to a grape variety (at the "Wein Plus" web site)? Not to the the human named Isabelle Masneuf-Pomarède. Which indicates this text is probably machine created. A computer algorithm creating text by finding text and links to text on a topic "wine", and not getting it that a person and a wine have the same name.

And do not even get me started about:

We have recently seen how quickly a virus can be transported around the world.

The link to "seen", goes to a link about "lakes" at the "Wein Plus" web site. Probably because "see" is the German word for "lake" (Ich lese und spreche Deutsch), yet lakes have nothing to do with how a virus migrates around the world. Looks like a poorly written algorithm got it wrong. Again.... Not in any way should this "article" be "seen" as anything of value or quality.

The German 'Wein Plus' magazine is a respected journal throughout Europe!

If they are sending you links to articles like above, I have significant doubts that is true..... This seems to be more simply about sending out text that is designed to re-reference "Wine Plus" to generate traffic back to "Wein Plus" thus increasing site traffic and possible search engine exposure. The real topic is irrelevant, and topic titles are designed to be click bait to send you down the rabbit hole.

Suggest reading some real journal articles like:

Genetic diversity and population structure of Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains isolated from different grape varieties and winemaking regions

Genetically different wine yeasts isolated from Austrian vine-growing regions influence wine aroma differently and contain putative hybrids between Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Saccharomyces kudriavzevii

and even a real recent article from Isabelle Masneuf-Pomarède

Quantifying the effect of human practices on S. cerevisiae vineyard metapopulation diversity

 

[winemanden]

Wein Plus doesn't send me specific links, they just send a link to the website. As I said I'm too mean to pay for the full whack. All I see (English) Is a couple of paragraphs, almost like reading the headlines in a newspaper. I don't buy those either, just read the free ones.

 

[franc1969]

A quick google found "Wein-Plus, a leading European on-line wine guide, based in Germany." Just like many others, they are focused on getting clicks, advertising, and selling wine to get a commission.
I have used the wein-plus site for info before, as I have used vinepair, wine-searcher, winemag, etc. The best site for info on grapes, wines, and pairing I have found is winefolly.com. Or wine-searcher for grape info. None of these sites are journals. They sell - wine or ads or courses.

 

[winemanden]

It's just like any information on the internet, you get all sort of questions and answers. You just have to use your own discretion, even on this Forum, and this thread, we don't all agree, but we still keep looking and answering, and learning.

 

[balatonwine]

we don't all agree

Every thinking and ethical person should agree that:

There is a difference between objective facts and opinions.

There is a difference between information and misinformation

There is a difference between science and pseudo-science.

There is a difference between being right and being wrong.

And there are some people who can openly and clearly admit when they were wrong, when shown what they said were not objective facts, or were publishing misinformation, or pseudo-science; and there are some that can not.

 

[balatonwine]

A quick google found "Wein-Plus, a leading European on-line wine guide, based in Germany." Just like many others, they are focused on getting clicks, advertising, and selling wine to get a commission.

Interesting that wein.plus redacts all ownership information:

https://www.whois.com/whois/wein.plus

The best site for info on grapes, wines, and pairing I have found is winefolly.com

Interesting that winefolly.com does not redact ownership information

https://www.whois.com/whois/winefolly.com
Especially interesting, as by wein.plus withholding information, one of the assumptions of neoclassical economic theory is invalidated (that is: people act independently on perfect (full and relevant) information). With wein.plus, withholding information people can not act efficiently, or effectively in any real and rational decision making about wein.plus because all people do not have access to full and relevant information about its real content, context, value, and thus real benefit to them (versus benefit only to wein.plus). (And anyone saying one does not personally care about ownership information is simply missing the point and does not understand neoclassical theory -- which like it or not dominates a lot of today's world, so you better understand it.) Ergo all views of this web site, for or against, theoretically, may be possibly, or actually, or essentially and maybe in fact, useless. It all then simply becomes a rather primitive glandular world of "opinions". Then we may risk being a non-thinking person, dispense with reality, and completely ignore all the errors and nonsense I have already documented that the OP claims came from this web site on this topic and as presented. **

** Generically speaking: Not to say one can not have a fun debate about Terroir. One can. But one must start from a rational basis, with some real sources and agreed rules based on some objective facts. Not by repeatedly quoting a complete nonsense "source". One should ideally use a better initial source. If not, one should simply acknowledge the error and move on to a better source (no harm no foul that way). Ergo, one should avoid defending the indefensible (that may cause a foul).

 

[winemanden]

Interesting that wein.plus redacts all ownership information:

https://www.whois.com/whois/wein.plus


Interesting that winefolly.com does not redact ownership information

https://www.whois.com/whois/winefolly.com
Especially interesting, as by wein.plus withholding information, one of the assumptions of neoclassical economic theory is invalidated (that is: people act independently on perfect (full and relevant) information). With wein.plus, withholding information people can not act efficiently, or effectively in any real and rational decision making about wein.plus because all people do not have access to full and relevant information about its real content, context, value, and thus real benefit to them (versus benefit only to wein.plus). (And anyone saying one does not personally care about ownership information is simply missing the point and does not understand neoclassical theory -- which like it or not dominates a lot of today's world, so you better understand it.) Ergo all views of this web site, for or against, theoretically, may be possibly, or actually, or essentially and maybe in fact, useless. It all then simply becomes a rather primitive glandular world of "opinions". Then we may risk being a non-thinking person, dispense with reality, and completely ignore all the errors and nonsense I have already documented that the OP claims came from this web site on this topic and as presented. **

** Generically speaking: Not to say one can not have a fun debate about Terroir. One can. But one must start from a rational basis, with some real sources and agreed rules based on some objective facts. Not by repeatedly quoting a complete nonsense "source". One should ideally use a better initial source. If not, one should simply acknowledge the error and move on to a better source (no harm no foul that way). Ergo, one should avoid defending the indefensible (that may cause a foul).

Lighten up a bit Balaton. You're obviously intelligent enough to decide what you think is right or wrong. It was never intended as a scientific article.
As I said in the original post 'There has been a lot of controversy as to whether Terroir exists. I only make Country Style wines myself but I thought you grape winemakers might find it interesting.'
Stay cool, have a glass of your wine, enjoy. have a nice Christmas.

 

[balatonwine]

Lighten up a bit Balaton.

You may be right.

Actually, you are right. I can admit error.