Third times the charm... still need a little advice on making cider

[cburke]

Hello,

At this again and have had some great help in the past and hoping for a bit more to make this year's batch even better.

Last year I used "New England" apples - Mac's, Cortlands, Macouns. etc. - all I could get my hands on. No one sold any good Cider apples around me. But gave it ago, fermented with champagne yeast I believe, which made it very dry and higher ABV (which ended up a bit over 7%). Primary for about 2 weeks, secondary for 2 weeks and then went through Malo-lactic fermentation which I was told should help. Bottled some and aged some a few more months. However, it was very sharp, a bit like battery acid which did get a bit better with age, but never great. Also, it was obviously still and have not had success restarting fermentation for carbonation.

So, couple quick questions...

1) Have a bit better pick of apples this year as I got my hands on some Baldwins, a classic NE cider apple. Will mix in a few others, but that will be my base - best I can get for cider apples around here. Should help I hope.

2) After reading through forum a bit more, probably going to go with S04 ale yeast which will keep residual sugar up a bit. Will this help keep that "sharp" taste under control?

3) Assuming I should continue with Malo-lactic fermentation. This seems to take so long that any yeast that would help with carbonating would die off by this point.

4) After Malo-Lactic fermentation, any suggestions how long to age for smoothest flavor? Which would be better, in bottle or in bulk ageing?

5) How do I restart fermentation to carbonate before bottling? Just add priming sugar (about 20g per gallon from what I have read) or do I need to add more yeast as well?


I know this is a lot, but trying to learn from past experiences. Also, I'll try to post some pics of my homemade press. Worked OK last year until too much pressure started to snap the wood that held T-screw in place.


Thank you in advance!!!

Colin

 

[dorfie]

OK well i can' t answer all of your questions definitively since this is my first year making cider as well but....
1) just a thought, but when i have made cider that i didn't ferment and i wanted some more "spice" or tannin in it a added crabapples, not a lot, like 10% weight and that seemed to improve it greatly.
2) I'm asuming that since the main acid in apples is malic and it has a sharp taste that is what you taste. more sugar will help balance that. a cider yeast will also make more esters and good flavored things to improve the cider.
3) never done MLF seems like a lot of time and money for cider, but that's me
5) when i have bottle carbed, i normally add my sugar if i need it and then a little champagne yeast to make nice small bubbles. then i pasteurized to avoid bombs. your primary ferment yeast will have mostly died off by this point since it took the cider to the level it could handle, so i would add a small amount, like 1/4 tsp per gallon.
Hopefully this helped! have fun!

 

[BernardSmith]

making the cider sweet will balance the acidity but is the problem malic acidity? It could be , but what was the temperature at which you fermented the cider. You say that you chose champagne yeast to ferment apples. I would have used 71B and would have fermented at the lower end of 71B's preferred temperatures .
You ask about how long should you age your cider? I tend to age mine about 12 months and the flavor changes incredibly. I often age in the bottle but you need to be sure that when you bottle the cider really has stopped dropping sediment out of suspension .

 

[Deezil]

So, I've yet to make a batch of cider or champagne. But the wine/mead that I'd say I'm best at, is Apple or Pear. Mine come out at 11-12% but taste almost identical to Strongbow cider when it hits about 18 months.

Smells like it's sharp, and when you taste it, the apple is there, and it leaves you waiting for that 'Granny Smith' bite... but it never comes. It's beautiful.

With or without MLF, that is achieved through pre-fermentation acidity adjustments.

Your different apple variety will have an impact, it will make a slightly different product, but you can work with almost any commercial apple if you manipulate it enough.

Yeasts impact the wines, but only in a few cases is it in the acidity - 71B is the most popular for that. Either way, I would ferment to dry and backsweeten to where you want it. This is tricky, because the carbonation you're looking for will change the balance between acidity and sweetness. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to grab a soda, open it, taste it, then shake it flat, and taste it again - sure, the flavor seems dead, but pay attention to the acidity and the sweetness; entirely manipulated.

I try to suggest first, getting a few successes under the belt with just the sugar-acidity balance before trying to work in the added factor of the carbonation, simply to understand the relationship well enough that when you do shoot for carbonation, you get to a product you like in a short enough amount of tries that you wont end up so discouraged that you walk away from the hobby entirely.

MLF on Apple and Pear is right up my alley, but like MLF'd Chardonnay, it's not necessarily for everyone. If the wine is just for you, then there's no issue but if you're trying to appease several different senses of "what tastes good", you might find that a pre-fermentation acidity balance is all you really need to knock everyones socks off.

If you do go the carbonation route, make sure to make sure to make sure that your priming sugar dosage and method is on point, or you really will be making alcoholic bombs. Depending on how long you've bulk aged the wine/mead/cider for, you might need to add new yeast.

I tend to bulk age most of my wines for 18 months, then slam them in a bottle for another 6 months or so. And that was before I started making meads, which take a little longer even. Apple is what it's going to be, at about the 18 month mark; if it's still funny then, then the "recipe" needs a little work.

 

[heatherd]

I have just made two batches, but I will give you my thoughts:

I would skip MLF.

I would add a large can of frozen apple juice concentrate to increase the flavor. Maybe two depending on size of your batch.

I'd add corn sugar to bottle prime and back-sweeten. I have also used liquid Sugar in the Raw for this, which is more expensive but adds a nice flavor.

What I did was add the above fermentable sugars, bottle with grolsch bottles with 1-2" of head space, wait 5-8 days for carbonation to happen, then pasteurize to kill the yeast. I put my bottles in the cold garage during the carbonation period, so bottle bombs were less of a concern. The cider expands in the bottle when heated to pasteurize, ergo the head space. I broke a few before I figured that out.

With only one can of concentrate and the bottle priming corn sugar, my 6 gallon batch was just off dry and nicely carbonated, light in flavor. Doing it again, I would add two family-size cans and more sugar.

Good luck!!

 

[BlueStimulator]

I have just made two batches, but I will give you my thoughts:

I would skip MLF.

I would add a large can of frozen apple juice concentrate to increase the flavor. Maybe two depending on size of your batch.

I'd add corn sugar to bottle prime and back-sweeten. I have also used liquid Sugar in the Raw for this, which is more expensive but adds a nice flavor.

What I did was add the above fermentable sugars, bottle with grolsch bottles with 1-2" of head space, wait 5-8 days for carbonation to happen, then pasteurize to kill the yeast. I put my bottles in the cold garage during the carbonation period, so bottle bombs were less of a concern. The cider expands in the bottle when heated to pasteurize, ergo the head space. I broke a few before I figured that out.

With only one can of concentrate and the bottle priming corn sugar, my 6 gallon batch was just off dry and nicely carbonated, light in flavor. Doing it again, I would add two family-size cans and more sugar.

Good luck!!

How do you pasteurize the bottles, I have 2 cases of 12 oz capped bottles and 2 cases of 16 oz flip tops I may have added to much sugar and will need to pasturize. What is the fastest and most efficient way.