Time vs Temp for Color Extraction

[RottenGrapeJuice]

I’m curious everyone’s opinion on how to maximize color extraction. I have made CS for a few years in a row and every year the color is weak. I understand that higher temp means more color extraction, but that would also lead to a shorter fermentation, which would lead to less less color extraction? It’s counter intuitive to me. What’s more important, time on skins, or temp of must? Because they are inversely related to one another.

So far I have been using lallzyme EXV, FT Rouge and it is better, but nothing like commercial wines. Only other thing I can think of trying is a cold soak. Unless of course all commercial wines are frauds and I am chasing an imaginary wine fairy

 

[MiBor]

I'm having the same problem with the Lodi Cab Sauvignon grapes I buy every year. I tried many techniques including enzymes, cold soaking, high temp fermentation for a day or two, extended contact after fermentation and all helped somewhat but none rendered the deep red or purple color of commercial wine.

I think that commercial wineries use other tricks to get the deep color they need in order to sell their wine, like Mega Purple or grape skin extracts. Cab skins are somewhat hard and color extraction from them is not easy.

Let's say, if you have a professional jacketed fermenter and the ability to control temperature and flush with inert gases, it would be theoretically possible to extend fermentation/extraction up to 60-90 days, which it may be the way to get the most color extraction from CS skins. But I'm convinced that the deep dark Cabernet that we buy at the store is most likely not just colored by the pigment extracted from the fermented skins, it had also been "helped" to look like that.

 

[winemaker81]

I've been using Scottzyme Color Pro since 2020, and it has produced amazing color on everything, including skin packs in kits. I ferment at cellar temperature (63 to 68 F), and get staining level color.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/wm81-fall-2023-experiments.78340/post-879343

In 2021 I made FWK Forte kits with 2 skin packs each, using Color Pro. The color is bottle-staining dark.

How long are you leaving on the skins? Last October I left my wines on the skins for 2 weeks (crushed Saturday, inoculated Sunday, pressed 2 weeks later) and got great color.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

2 years ago, I remember the outside temp was higher so my must ran through primary in like 4 days at 80-85 degrees, color was light. This year I kept the must around 70-72 and I fermented over 11 days, color is definitely better, but this year is also Montepulciano and not CS so not a great experiment

However it does go back to my original point that everyone says high temps mean good color extraction, and while that may be true, it shortens the skin time and ultimately leads to weaker color.

I think going forward, cooler temps seem to be the way to go, and I can try out color pro and/or a cold soak. EM beyond a few days is too risky for my liking. Other than that, just gotta convince the drinkers that this is what a REAL wine looks like hahahaha

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

I'm having the same problem with the Lodi Cab Sauvignon grapes I buy every year. I tried many techniques including enzymes, cold soaking, high temp fermentation for a day or two, extended contact after fermentation and all helped somewhat but none rendered the deep red or purple color of commercial wine.

I think that commercial wineries use other tricks to get the deep color they need in order to sell their wine, like Mega Purple or grape skin extracts. Cab skins are somewhat hard and color extraction from them is not easy.

Let's say, if you have a professional jacketed fermenter and the ability to control temperature and flush with inert gases, it would be theoretically possible to extend fermentation/extraction up to 60-90 days, which it may be the way to get the most color extraction from CS skins. But I'm convinced that the deep dark Cabernet that we buy at the store is most likely not just colored by the pigment extracted from the fermented skins, it had also been "helped" to look like that.

I could be wrong but I believe Lodi is also what I use. maybe it’s not be maybe it’s the grapes haha

 

[BPL]

In 2021 I made FWK Forte kits with 2 skin packs each, using Color Pro. The color is bottle-staining dark.

I would like to improve the color in my wines. When using Color Pro on the FWK kits, did you macerate the skins? How long?

Can you comment on how Color Pro affected the tannins, specifically in the FWK's?

Yes, I searched the forum, and read the documentation for the product.

Thanks

 

[winemaker81]

I would like to improve the color in my wines. When using Color Pro on the FWK kits, did you macerate the skins? How long?

Can you comment on how Color Pro affected the tannins, specifically in the FWK's?

Yes, I searched the forum, and read the documentation for the product.

I made 3 FWK Forte Super Tuscan kits as one batch, as I needed enough wine to fill a 55 liter barrel. All my fall wines are fermented in my cellar, where the temperature may vary between 62 and 68 F (17 to 20 C)

According to my Super Tuscan notes, I reconstituted the kit with Color Pro, adding skin packs, seeds, and oak chips, and inoculated the next day. The SG was 1.100, and dropped to 0.998 six days later. I racked the wine and had enough skin packs (6) that I actually pressed them in a basket press.

The color? Ink.



The tannin? I have nothing to directly compare it against, but I'll say it's smooth. It's an accent that is palpable, but it not a dominant flavor. My tasting notes from a year ago are still accurate. In recent years I typically pour 2 glasses, one "as is" and one through a "duck" aerator.

02/26/2024​

Unaerated: The color is pure ink. I used Scottzyme Color Pro maceration enzyme, and it works fine on skin packs. This one has a lot of berry fruit up front — some might even think it sweet, although it’s bone dry. There’s tannin on the middle of the tongue in the finish. There’s a bit of harshness in the aftertaste I cannot place.​

​

Aerated: The fruit is just as prominent, but it’s different — I’d say black raspberry that fades into a strawberry. As I noted with the Meritage Plus tasting, the fruit is more distinctive with aeration. Tannin is a hint in the aftertaste, a seasoning, not a flavoring. There’s a hint of an acid bite that never materializes; it’s tantalizing.​

​

This is more than I’d expect from a kit, but I used Color Pro and fermentation oak (both of which enhance color and body), and barrel aged for 9 months, so it’s not a typical kit.​

Just had a tiny taste of unaerated and aerated. Things are about the same as a year ago. Unaerated has a slightly harsh aftertaste that completely disappears when aerated.

In 2020 I used the entire 1.3 oz botted of Color Pro in the wines (Merlot, Zinfandel, Bordeaux blend), and it pulled WAY too much color. This amount exceeded the recommended maximum. Every bottle was stained inside and required Oxyclean to remove it.

I went lighter on the Color Pro in 2021, going with the max dosage. This one doesn't stain the bottles, but it's heavy.

For the 2024's, I calculated the median dosage and went with that. The Chambourcin is really dark, but it's a Teinturier grape, so that's not a surprise. For those not familiar, Teinturier indicates a red grape whose pulp and juice are red, not white.

The Chelois is a bit lighter, but still has a lot of color.

It's hard to do a comparison, as the 2024 reds had a short EM, pressed on Day 14.

FYI -- I wrote "wine in detail" blogs for the 2021 FWK Super Tuscan and all 2024 wines. These blogs are a lot more detailed than my normal notes:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/wines-in-detail/

 

[BPL]

Thank You!

 

[Hazelemere]

I’m curious everyone’s opinion on how to maximize color extraction. I have made CS for a few years in a row and every year the color is weak. I understand that higher temp means more color extraction, but that would also lead to a shorter fermentation, which would lead to less less color extraction? It’s counter intuitive to me. What’s more important, time on skins, or temp of must? Because they are inversely related to one another.

So far I have been using lallzyme EXV, FT Rouge and it is better, but nothing like commercial wines. Only other thing I can think of trying is a cold soak. Unless of course all commercial wines are frauds and I am chasing an imaginary wine fairy

hand destem and ferment uncrushed with rc212 and nutrient. You'll get a long slow ferment with lots of colour.

 

[BPL]

hand destem and ferment uncrushed with rc212 and nutrient. You'll get a long slow ferment with lots of colour.

Why do you think RC212 would be "long and slow"? What's long...10 days, 20 days, longer?

 

[VinesnBines]

This is extremely interesting. My 2024 Chambourcin and Chelois is from the same vineyard as Winemaker_81. (my vineyard). I used Color Pro and a two week maceration. The color is much lighter than 2023. The Chambourcin had a warmer fermentation and still the color is lacking. Yeast was Advante.

 

[Hazelemere]

Why do you think RC212 would be "long and slow"? What's long...10 days, 20 days, longer?

hand destemmed uncrushed gives you long and slow e.g 12 to 20 days. I never crush red wine grapes. All of my red grape wines are inky except Grenache. We've had killer 9 year old Washington Meek Vineyard Grenache Syrah Mourvedre and Grenache Syrah Malbec that weren't inky fermented this way and never worry about colour. Inky purple Pinnacle of Verdot made from Dineen Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon and Petit Verdot hand destemmed and uncrushed with RC212 and nutrient for 12 days. The other advantage of fermenting this way is you get more skin tannin and less seed tannin with more intense complex smell plus easier malolactic fermentations. We never sulphite our grape reds at all ever if the grapes are really healthy until the end of malolactic fermentation and 120 day medium toast American oak cube soaking when we add 1/8 tsp potassium metabisulphite per Imperial gallon i.e. 50 ppm total sulphite. We haven't had a single failure going this route in 15 years. Yes it takes time but we get an army of winemaking family to help do it (sometimes as many as 10 people on a large batch of grapes) so its fun and not a pain. Trust me the result is different and IMHO absolutely worth the effort. We try to bottle our red grape wines at total sulphite no higher than about 80 ppm. Oak extracts sulphite, so oaking without sulphite at the start of malolactic fermentation lets you drop your total sulphite levels. PS we never make 2nd run reds from pressed grape pomace and press at SG no higher than about 1.010, usually ~ 1.000 into glass carboys. Bonus of not crushing is that you get less sludge. If you don't believe me try this technique on a batch of grapes that you can handle and do a battle of the bands using your normal technique as a comparison.

 

[winemaker81]

This is extremely interesting. My 2024 Chambourcin and Chelois is from the same vineyard as Winemaker_81. (my vineyard). I used Color Pro and a two week maceration. The color is much lighter than 2023. The Chambourcin had a warmer fermentation and still the color is lacking. Yeast was Advante.

I split both the Chambourcin and Chelois in 2 batches, using Avante and Bravo (Renaissance yeast strains) in the respective batches. In theory, we should get essentially identical results.

I'm due to topup barrels. I'll take pictures and post them.

 

[BPL]

If you don't believe me try this technique on a batch of grapes that you can handle and do a battle of the bands using your normal technique as a comparison.

Oh, I believe you. I'm glad your technique works, and I'm pretty sure the wine is delightful.

hand destemmed uncrushed gives you long and slow e.g 12 to 20 days. I never crush red wine grapes.

With utmost respect, the long and slow part has nothing to do with RC212. The yeast has similar characteristics as most other saccharomyces cerevisiae strains with medium nitrogen needs. I suggest the uncrushed grape skins have the most impact of the length of time and actually helps with the maceration of color.

Alcoholic fermentation under most circumstances at ~75*F, with accurate nutrient management from a starting Brix of ~25 to 28, will occur in roughly 5 to 8 days. If malolactic bacteria is involved, most likely much longer, in relative terms maybe 15 to 30 days total time from yeast pitch. The time involved converting of the malic acid to lactic acid will be determined by the type of bacteria (if indigenous) to your area, the type of nutrient management, and the fruit itself.

All "nutrients" are not created equal and different types have direct impacts on fermentation time.

Trust me the result is different and IMHO absolutely worth the effort.

Yes, I will agree and no doubt worth the effort. However, to the casual observer (and those relatively new to winemaking), I suggest seeking to understand the life cycle (biology) of yeast cells, sugar metabolism rates, and the impact(s) of yeast stress on flavor.

Thank you for the detailed response of your methods. It's definitely worth consideration.