Tips for making cab

[Rdbakerdvm]

Hi all, I have been making Pinot for a few years but recently came into a 1/4 ton
Of nice Napa valley Cabernet grapes. They were crushed two days ago and have just begun fermenting. I was wondering when the best time to press would be…at the end of fermentation or maybe a few days later? When to add malolactic? Any other differences in making cab vs Pinot?

 

[Snafflebit]

I think, for Cabernet (maybe for all wines) extending the alcohol contact time with the must will start to pull out more bitter seed tannins. If you are happy with the flavor when SG gets a little below 0, I say press.

 

[Rdbakerdvm]

My fermentation seems to be going super slowly compared to my Pinot…gone from 26 to 21 in five days. Using rockpile yeast. I guess slow is good as long as it keeps going?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

My fermentation seems to be going super slowly compared to my Pinot…gone from 26 to 21 in five days. Using rockpile yeast. I guess slow is good as long as it keeps going?

Rockpile is fast yeast you may need nutrients if it’s slow

 

[BarrelMonkey]

What sort of vessel(s) are they in and what is the temperature? In order to get good fermentation and extraction you may need to get the temp up. Aquarium heaters are good, just be sure to switch them off before you take them out for punchdowns etc, otherwise they'll get fried...

Also agree with @Nebbiolo020, do you have a nutrition plan? I would have done my first Fermaid-O addition around 23 brix.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

What sort of vessel(s) are they in and what is the temperature? In order to get good fermentation and extraction you may need to get the temp up. Aquarium heaters are good, just be sure to switch them off before you take them out for punchdowns etc, otherwise they'll get fried...

Also agree with @Nebbiolo020, do you have a nutrition plan? I would have done my first Fermaid-O addition around 23 brix.

I like Fermaid K or Nutristart from Laffort never particularly liked Fermaid O.

I would do a dose at around pitching, a dose later on before halfway point if it still has issues. Rockpile can stick if it’s too cold it tends to like to run a bit hotter.

Just to bounce off what you said we ferment in our macrobins at the winery then press and let settle in tanks and then pump out and clean tanks and pump back in and let malo rip.

 

[mainshipfred]

I normally do 200 -300 lb batches usually separated in 4-5 ferments with different yeasts. These are typically in 10 gallon brutes. When pressing I scoop the skins into the press and when only juice is lets I pour it into the press. What I found is the bottom of the brute has most of the seeds which doesn't go into the press. This year I'm going to try a form of delestage and periodically transfer the skins and juice to a different container and remove the seeds. Might do this twice during the fermentation. I'm going to do it with Tannat and PV and possibly Nebbiolo which is all I'm making this year.

 

[Snafflebit]

This year I'm going to try a form of delestage and periodically transfer the skins and juice to a different container and remove the seeds. Might do this twice during the fermentation. I'm going to do it with Tannat and PV and possibly Nebbiolo which is all I'm making this year.

I love this idea. Stealing

 

[StimVino]

This year I'm going to try a form of delestage and periodically transfer the skins and juice to a different container and remove the seeds. Might do this twice during the fermentation.

Interesting idea. Are you going to remove the skins by lifting them out of the fermenter? If the juice is drained from the bottom, I assume it would bring the seeds along with it. Or, are you saying that the seeds will settle to the bottom and be left behind when racking? It could be useful to create a false bottom that allows seeds to pass but not skins. That way they would be left behind. Also, I’ve noticed that using enzymes practically melts the skin off and extracts more seeds into the must. This could be useful for getting seeds out.

 

[mainshipfred]

Yes, scoop the skins to a second brute until I just have mostly liquid then slowly pour the juice into the brute. Inoculated a 7.5 gallon ferment Saturday morning and this is what I got after 3 days. The process wasn't perfect and I lost some of the seeds but it is at least 100 ml of seeds. I'll do the other 4 brutes today and all of them again in a couple days.

 

[StimVino]

Yes, scoop the skins to a second brute until I just have mostly liquid then slowly pour the juice into the brute. Inoculated a 7.5 gallon ferment Saturday morning and this is what I got after 3 days. The process wasn't perfect and I lost some of the seeds but it is at least 100 ml of seeds. I'll do the other 4 brutes today and all of them again in a couple days.

Good amount of seed there. Let us know how the transfer affects the fermentation, if at all? Also, are you leaving one with seeds so that you can compare the difference? It would be good to have a benchmark.

 

[ovjock]

Here is my experience with brix for RP-15 for Petite Sirah. It is slow to start but picks up quickly.

 

[mainshipfred]

This is Nebbiolo after the 3rd day ferment. About 160 ml worth of seeds from 8 gallons of must. Out of the 5 ferments I did this to I wish I would have kept one for a control but didn't think of it at the time. Next up is the PV whenever it comes in.

 

[StimVino]

This is Nebbiolo after the 3rd day ferment. About 160 ml worth of seeds from 8 gallons of must. Out of the 5 ferments I did this to I wish I would have kept one for a control but didn't think of it at the time. Next up is the PV whenever it comes in.

I really like your experiment and for me the question becomes does removing the seeds early in the fermentation process lead to a smoother, less astringent, wine? I think we can all agree that green seeds are bad. But, yours look brown, as they should be. So, what impact does removing brown seeds have on the wine? Also, does messing with the yeast environment in such a heavy handed way, by transferring both juice and grapes to another vat mid fermentation, lead to any fermentation problems?

 

[mainshipfred]

I really like your experiment and for me the question becomes does removing the seeds early in the fermentation process lead to a smoother, less astringent, wine? I think we can all agree that green seeds are bad. But, yours look brown, as they should be. So, what impact does removing brown seeds have on the wine? Also, does messing with the yeast environment in such a heavy handed way, by transferring both juice and grapes to another vat mid fermentation, lead to any fermentation problems?

It's my understanding the seeds whether green or brown have the unwanted harsh astringency. I never looked closely at the seeds to see what color they were originally but I might assume they got stained by the skins. As far a the yeast environment I feel the yeast is in the juice and if anything it's just giving it more O2 to grow.