Uncontrollable Gas

[dangerdave]

Ok, I'm baffled with this one. Back in October, I started a batch of apple raspberry wine using Old Orchard frozen concentrate. I don't have my wine log with me here at work, or I would give more details on the recipe, but that's not the problem. It fermented fine, at the proper temp. I fined and degassed this stuff a month ago, but it keeps carbing up again.

I have never had a batch do this before. I'm now to the point where I've degassed this batch many times. Admittedly, it was a little on the cool side the second and successive times I degassed. In between degassings, I've let it sit, and watched as the airlock water got pushed out every time. I even racked the wine under vacuum seven times in one day (it bubbled like crazy each time), with nothing to show for my effort a few days later but a six gallon jug of apple raspberry soda! Thinking that I had rogue yeasts at work, I then resulphited and added more sorbate before racking.

Yesterday, I warmed it up to 75F and degassed again. I can't figure this stuff out! I have other wines I have made before, during, and after with no problems. Where the heck it all that gas coming from?

 

[jswordy]

Did you test your wine by taking some out with a thief and putting it in a hydrometer jar, then sealing it with your hand and shaking it to see if it gives off a "puff" of gas when you release your hand? Wine might foam in this test but not give off the puff, and that wine is degassed.

I kind of find it hard to believe the wine would still have residual CO2 after all that effort, and after your dosing, if it was refermenting it would taste like crap, I would think, from stressed yeasts.

If you really suspect fermentation, add sodium benzoate. That'll stop that.

 

[Wade E]

Being that this is apple wine and apple is usually high in Malic acid it is possible its going through a slow MLF. What level do you have your S02 at and did you add sorbate because if so you may encounter and after taste that will smell and taste like geraniums if so.

 

[dangerdave]

Jim: So far, every time I have gone to test the wine, I stick the thief in the carboy and bubbles form on it's surface. I've done the shake test with positive indications each time for CO2.

Wade: I think you may have something there, my friend. I'm not sure about the level of SO2, because I still have no means of testing for it (I know! I know!). I tried to be minimal with the sorbate addition to avoid unfavorable smells/tastes.

This one has been troublesome, indeed. I have never been so close to dumping a batch down the drain. It is a realatively cheap batch of frozen concetrate wine, so the loss is negligible. I'll might put it in the back of my carboy cart, out of sight under my table, for a couple of months and give it time to finish whatever it's doing.

I could sure use that carboy to make some good wine.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Is the SG stable?

 

[dangerdave]

Is the SG stable?

Well, um, Doc...I haven't checked that since it went dry in the primary. It was backsweetened with some more concentrate some time ago. Stable would mean "not changing", correct?

I guess I should be checking that. My bad.

I'll get to that tomorrow and see if it's remaining stable. Thanks.

 

[dralarms]

Wow, saw the thread title and the first thing I thought of was you must know my daughter. Lol.

She is on some kind of medicine and I'm telling you that girl can't control her gas.

 

[Arne]

Dave, there is a bright side to this. You caught it in the carboy. Many times on here people have posted to say their apple blew its cork. Totally stable, sulfited, sorbated, sweetened, bottled and a while later, corks blew out. Watch the threads and you will occasionally see it happen with apple. Happened to me a long time ago and has not happened since, knock on wood. Have watched the cork blowing threads and many times it is with apple, not always but think it is in the majority. Mine was a small batch, blew 3 out of 5 corks. Stuck the last 2 bottles in the refrigerator, got em good and cold, took them outside and it was pretty good sparkling apple. Don't know what happened to one of the corks tho. Never did find it. Good luck with it, Arne.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

Tried Beano?

 

[shinewine]

Dave, here's my 2 cents. I made Elderberry wine 1.8 years ago and purchased every whip and tried everything. I refused to five up on it. So I followed the instruction and bit the bullet and gas-racked the wine. I had to transfer it 5 times to get the gas out. (happy for the vacuum) FINALLY the gas it out, and the wine is delicious. And we have no idea what we did wrong. As far as we are concderned nothing. But the wine is fine...

 

[Gr8zins]

Tried Beano?

Great. I was wondering if someone was thinking like me when I read the post. But really, I used whips and other drill based de-gassing methods, and they never did the job 100 percent. Vacuum seems to be the only thing that works for me. It's almost too good to be true.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

I would have thought someone named "Danger" Dave would look at this as a great chance to do the most dangerous thing in winemaking - make some champagne! You are fighting your wine so hard, why not let it do what it wants to do, in a real champagne or beer bottle? Cracked

 

[Julie]

Dave, I'm with Wade on this, I think you have a fermentation going but I don't think it is MLF. You mention using a minimal amount of sorbate, I am wondering if you did not use enough and have a slow ferment going.

 

[dangerdave]

I used the prescribed three tsp at fining. The second time around, after I had degassed three times without success, I added another 1.5 tsp to knock out any residual yeasties that might be hanging around.

To all of those concerned, I do vacuum rack. Every time. When degassing, I typically vacuum rack the wine back and forth several times to drive out all of the gas. Works great! It would seem, this last time, after I warmed up the wine a bit, that Imay have gotten the job done. I've put the carboy under my table, in my bart, and will let it sit for a month to be sure. I'm not going to bottle until I know it's gas-free. I hope it tastes ok though. I've yet to get a good tasting with all the bitter CO2 on board, messing up the flavor.

Thanks for all the helpful input, everyone! You all rule!

 

[shinewine]

Great. I was wondering if someone was thinking like me when I read the post. But really, I used whips and other drill based de-gassing methods, and they never did the job 100 percent. Vacuum seems to be the only thing that works for me. It's almost too good to be true.

I have to agree w/ you, and even though I am a new wine skin, I stuck to guns and I'm glad I did. Allow me to explain.

I've only been making wine 2 years. I lurk here, reading often, posting never. When when it comes to "gas" most people say a shake or 2, a whip or two and the problem should be solved, and if it isn't it goes into the discussion that is must still be fermenting or mlf or...I read enough to think it was possible, but I soooo did everything right according to my Type A personality. I bought books, I subscribed to magazines, and my 12 gals of elderberry sat. and sat... and sat... (from all my reading, this is a good thing for Elderberry so I wasn't worried) Still no one could believe that there could be as much gas trapped in my wine as I was suggesting. The folks at my wine making supply store thought I was nuts, but they didn't mind, I kept on buying things. So then I decided to try the gasracking. I had folks tell me I was wasting my time and money because the whips I had used, and the amount of time I spent doing them was sufficient for getting the gas out. But I went with me. And it was UNBELIEVABLE. It was my last hope and I'm glad I stuck w/ what I thought, which was unbelievable amounts of gas trapped in my wine. As I said, I'm glad I did, because after 6 racks each of both of the carboys, the gas is gone. And not only did the vacuum suck out that gas as it was released through the racking, but my wine was protected from much more oxygen had I done that 6 times by just splash racking.

All of that, just to say, listen to the peoples here. They know a lot. However that includes the few who say, "I can't get the gas out."

Now, the bigger question is trying to figure out what I did wrong to get the gas trapped in there in the first place. Cause oddly enough, the Gewurztraminer I've made (2 kits) and the Barolo (2 kits) were just as gassy as the elderberry (2 carboys, fresh picked, organic...) The concord I made from grapes, however, was not gassy like that. So, I'm wondering if the kits I used froze their juice first, cause I froze my elderberries until I could get enough to make the wine, and I'm wondering if freezing does something...but this is where I continue to sound like the novice that I am, showing that I have much to learn.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Its tough to make good wine in 2 months. Glad to see some more elderberry winemakers on here, our crop was pitiful this year, we got just enough to dry to make some mead. If you get enough berries you might want to try to dry some, it makes a different elderberry taste than the fresh berries. Cracked

 

[shinewine]

Its tough to make good wine in 2 months. Glad to see some more elderberry winemakers on here, our crop was pitiful this year, we got just enough to dry to make some mead. If you get enough berries you might want to try to dry some, it makes a different elderberry taste than the fresh berries. Cracked

Elderberries were terrrible here, too. (PA) I'll have to try that. Do you use a dehydrator. I do have a good one. Do you have a recipe? You mentioned dry "some." I'll have to try it.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Shiney, follow my sig. We use and excalibur dehydrator. You can weigh your wet berries, dry them and get a ratio of dry to wet and use that as a starting point, making one wine with the equivalent amount of dried elderberries to the amount you use wet so you would have one in the range you already know you like, and then make one with at least 50% more dried berries to enhance the flavor, its really different and the same at the same time, you have to make some to see. CC

 

[shinewine]

Shiney, follow my sig. We use and excalibur dehydrator. You can weigh your wet berries, dry them and get a ratio of dry to wet and use that as a starting point, making one wine with the equivalent amount of dried elderberries to the amount you use wet so you would have one in the range you already know you like, and then make one with at least 50% more dried berries to enhance the flavor, its really different and the same at the same time, you have to make some to see. CC

Cracked Cork!!! Oh my word!!! It's you. LOL. I followed your name and when I saw the pic, that feeling hit me again. JEALOUSY...Somewhere one day through many searches on elderberry wine, I found that page, and my tongue and heart drolled w/ envy over some of the finest elderberry patches I have ever seen. I have planted a few up our cottage where the deer and bear have destroyed them, and recently planted a few in my yard, but I do have to tell you I went w/ Black Lace for the purple foilage because my yard has to have beauty as well as functionality, as it's smaller. So, I have to gather mine the old fashioned way, ravaging through gulleys and briars to get 'em. But I love it, so I don't mind. But I have to tell you, you must makes lots of wine or jelly. Okay, I'm off to re-read your ramblings. Thanks for sharing.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

All I can say is I have the coolest wife Our patch has some fungus problems that started during last years wet spring, this year we got a few berries, thankfully enough to dry, but I have many empty carboys that should have been full of elderberry something or other. I might have to go wild and start using a GPS to mark the wild berries this spring CC

On to gassing - has anyone mentioned patience yet