Using Canned Fruit (Pumpkin)

[cenk57]

I see a couple pumpkin recipes on this site that call for grating pumpkin or cooking. I am currently writing a pumpkin spice recipe and would like to add a canned option. I know using canned pumpkin isn't ideal, but it could be used out of season. My questions:

Can the canned pumpkin be dumped directly in the primary fermenter or should it be in a mesh bag? I generally do not use and do not like mesh bags.

If the canned pumpkin is poured directly into the primary, how would you go about getting an accurate beginning SG reading (the pumpkin would thicken the must throwing off a hydrometer)? Could a refractometer be used for this? If in a mesh bag, how would you get an accurate beginning SG reading of the must - you would not be taking into account the sugars in the pumpkin in the bag?

When you generally add spices for best effect (in the primary, in the secondary, during bulk aging or after stabilization)?

I am thinking of using a white grape juice base. Any other thoughts on this?

Thanks and I will glad post my completed recipe once I attempt it! Or maybe post my attempt here.

 

[Scooter68]

First thing is to look at the ingredients. What perservatives are there, any pectin etc. That's important to know. It might not be a show stopper but you need to know what may influence the outcome.

 

[Chinook]

I stopped using mesh bags unless there is something possibly off putting like stems in the bag.

When I want the SG of must with fruit (or vegetable) pulp in it I strain the must, from for instance a one liter pitcher to another plastic measuring cup, through an ordinary kitchen strainer. Either a metal one for large pieces or a plastic one with a fine mesh filter to filter out pulp. And I might have to clear the pulp aside in the fine mesh to get enough liquid through the filter. Then I take the SG of the filtered must..
It seems to work. I get an accurate SG of the must without pulp in it.
...
Also I do an SG of the must before I toss in the pulp and one after.
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If the pumpkin or any fruit has a lot of watery pulp then you could be lowering the SG a little.
If you want to get really accurate I saw some website that calculated the amount of sugar in the pulp of various solid fruits. There were high percentages there but I'm not sure if they matched the percentages of a typical wine must...
There is a thread here that has detailed information on this

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/sugar-content-of-fruit.72783/
Then you just make sure to measure the volume of the added fruit in a litre measuring cup and do the calculations , calculating how much liquid, how much solid was added to the primary must.
Typically from experience, I how found out that the SG measurement after adding the fruit is lower but only slightly.
Though as we know there is still unprocessed sugar in the solid parts of the fruit. Yet I believe the syrup usually is watery and at a much lower sugar content than the wine must.
I've done a lot of micro-analysis but I think the differences in final ABV from my readings for six gallon batches are never more than 1 % , more likely .less than .5 percent. And to the lower , not the higher.
That's for added fruit from anywhere from 1.25 lbs to about 7-8 lbs.

Now I use the formula 1.78 cups sugar to one litre of water is 14 % ABV.
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So after all that I usually just eyeball it, I just end up adding one extra cup sugar if I think there was a lot of low level sugar volume added that could alter my initial SG reading.- could be two if I used a lot. It couldn't hurt!

Yes, make sure you do an SG before you dump additives like oak or fruit in the must so you have a standard to measure against.

..
I think fermentation in primary can burn off aromas from fruits and spices. I saw that said about adding F-Packs from fruit wine kits. Not sure if it is true. I would put spices in the secondary post stabilization. I don't think they need to be part of the fermentation process.
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From previous advice I've seen for instnce "oak" adding to primary adds structure, to secondary adds taste - someone said you get the taste of the oak much more if adding to the secondary, not so much if adding to the primary but thee has another purpose for" mouthfeel". So there is an example.

 

[Chinook]

First thing is to look at the ingredients. What perservatives are there, any pectin etc. That's important to know. It might not be a show stopper but you need to know what may influence the outcome.

Yes, look out for sulfides. If it has sulfides then it is not necessarily a killer aeration re-usage can get rid of most of it. Like splashing or opening the can and putting a cloth cover on it for a couple of days.
Some people do that with concentrated lemon before making skeeter pee.

 

[Rice_Guy]

EDIT see post eleven below! A refractometer or hydrometer are calibrated for a specific crop as grape. THERE CAN BE SIGNIFICANT ERROR vs. CHEMICAL ANALYSIS ON USING THESE TOOLS ON OTHER CROPS.
* there are two common products pumpkin pie filling and canned pumpkin. The pie filling has added ingredients where as CANNED PUMPKIN is as the label says just pumpkin. Pumpkin is a low acid fruit therefore it is retorted for approximately 50 minutes at 15psig. ,,,, Pumpkin is pumped into the can. Pumpkin is deskinned with 100psig steam, then cooked then pressed through a screen. THERE ISN’T texture left if you tried to put it in a nylon bag.
* pumpkin is in the squash family. Pie varieties should have high solids and be fairly sweet. Comparison squash (squeezed juice); butternut squash years 2018, 2019, 2020; gravity 1.051, 1.041, 1.054; pH 5.67, 7.62, 6.68; TA 0.33%, 0.04% 0.06%. Acorn 2020 1.044/ 5.20 pH/ 0.12%TA.
Without running numbers for a few seasons I would guess that pie pumpkin liquid is 1.050 gravity/ 6.5pH/ 0.1%TA and that the liquid fraction is 50% of the weight.
* I have fermented what I called “thanksgiving wine” made up of butternut squash, cranberry and orange juice concentrate. Add pectase. It was not a crowd pleaser so there is some left, ,,, AND I am not going to do it again. ,,,,
much of the liquid in your must will be the added juice, it wasn’t hard to get a gravity and it cleared fairly well.

 

[wpt-me]

There is a thread on this forum. If you search for canned pumpkin recipe.

sorry don't know to put up a link.

Bill

 

[Chinook]

*
* pumpkin is in the squash family. Pie varieties should have high solids and be fairly sweet. Comparison squash (squeezed juice); butternut squash years 2018, 2019, 2020; gravity 1.051, 1.041, 1.054; pH 5.67, 7.62, 6.68; TA 0.33%, 0.04% 0.06%. Acorn 2020 1.044/ 5.20 pH/ 0.12%TA.
Without running numbers for a few seasons I would guess that pie pumpkin liquid is 1.050 gravity/ 6.5pH/ 0.1%TA and that the liquid fraction is 50% of the weight.

So those SG's are lower than typical Wine ABV's ... by about half. So a cup or two of sugar as per my formula previously quoted would put the SG back to it;s original.

 

[Chinook]

* * I have fermented what I called “thanksgiving wine” made up of butternut squash, cranberry and orange juice concentrate. Add pectase. It was not a crowd pleaser so there is some left, ,,, AND I am not going to do it again. ,,,,

I made a Spiced Tea wine ..same thing - not a crowd pleaser and I still have two bottles left looking for victims/experimental subjects, I loved the spice back taste, but people just want their grapes or the tastes that they are familiar with.
What can you do?

 

[winemaker81]

If the canned pumpkin is poured directly into the primary, how would you go about getting an accurate beginning SG reading (the pumpkin would thicken the must throwing off a hydrometer)?

How much canned pumpkin are you planning to use? Fruit wines are typically a minimum of 4 lbs of fruit/gallon of water, and for some fruits the general recommendation on this forum is up to 8 lbs. Regardless of how much you use, add pectic enzyme as I expect the cooked puree to have pectin.

Stir the heck out of it to break up the puree as best you can -- I'd use a drill mounted stirring rod: add a can, stir well, repeat as needed.

Reading the SG can't be much worse than reading an initial SG in other types of wine. If you have a refractometer, cool! If not, just use a hydrometer. As much as many of us strive for accuracy, in reality a difference of 1 or 2 degrees on the OG is not critical. Your best is all you can do.

A white wine base is a good idea, but I expect the pumpkin will jack the sugar level up, so you'll need to dilute it. Assuming you're buying a wine kit, dilute the kit to it's recommended amount (6 gallons), then stir in the pumpkin. Check the SG and dilute with water until you get the SG you want.

I don't foresee that adding pumpkin will lower the SG, but if I'm wrong on this, add sugar until you get the right SG. If you're using a generic white concentrate, it's the same process, although unless you're making a small batch, a kit will probably be cheaper. However, Winexpert makes 1 gallon kits -- that might be cheaper than concentrate, and it includes yeast and probably bentonite.

Fermentation is going to extract aroma and flavor from spices added prior to fermentation, probably more flavor than aroma. I'd add typical pumpkin pie spices, e.g., cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, allspice, and cloves. I use whole/fresh spices in metheglin -- put in a cheesecloth hops bag, wrap in plastic and gently beat with a hammer to crush. Remove the plastic and drop in the fermenter. This excludes the ginger, which I'd grate. OTOH, if using ground spices, stir them in the fermenter.

After the wine clears (1 to 3 weeks post-fermentation), taste it. If the aroma and taste are muted, add more of the above spices for aging.

How much? For my last metheglin, I used 6 cinnamon sticks, 12 whole cloves, and 12 whole allspice during fermentation for a 5 gallon batch. Tasting a few years later I wish I had added the same during aging, as the aroma and flavor are muted. I'm happy with it, but the next one will be better.[/QUOTE]

 

[cenk57]

How much canned pumpkin are you planning to use? Fruit wines are typically a minimum of 4 lbs of fruit/gallon of water, and for some fruits the general recommendation on this forum is up to 8 lbs. Regardless of how much you use, add pectic enzyme as I expect the cooked puree to have pectin.

I am planning on 4-5 pounds per gallon and will be adding plenty of peptic enzyme. I will not be using a wine kit. They've always seemed very overpriced for what they are, in my opinion. I have plenty of additives (acid, fining agents, yeast, pectic enzyme ext.) But I've never spent the money on one, so my opinion is pretty worthless on that.

 

[Rice_Guy]

possibly I should edit post 5 above to include the USDA standard numbers we use to create food labels.
moisture , , , , 93.8% (higher than my guess, ,,, the test dries a pulp for 3hr at 130C)
carbohydrate , 4.9% (basically starch which will not react with pectase)
sugar , , , , , , , 2.0% ( ie gravity of 1.012, not a lot of sugar! ,,,, the test measures chemically with Fehlings solution, the implication is that my measurement of 14% sugar above could be concentrating ALL soluble matter in steaming followed by filtering with a #100 mesh. ,,,,, For comparison the grape juice you are formulating with is 30 to 35% fermentable sugar.)

. . . add pectic enzyme as I expect the cooked puree to have pectin. . . .
Reading the SG can't be much worse than reading an initial SG in other types of wine. If you have a refractometer, cool! If not, just use a hydrometer. As much as many of us strive for accuracy, in reality a difference of 1 or 2 degrees on the OG is not critical. Your best is all you can do. . . . . but I expect the pumpkin will jack the sugar level up, so you'll need to dilute it. . . . . . .I don't foresee that adding pumpkin will lower the SG, but if I'm wrong on this, add sugar until you get the right SG. .

Looking at USDA numbers pumpkin is not a significant source of yeast fermentable sugar. If one treated the pumpkin like a beer and added malt enzymes the carbohydrate could be utilized. ,,,,, another way say this is pumpkin contains a lot of “sugar free dry extract”, the risk in using my hydrometer or a refractometer is that these tools are calibrated for the mixture typical in grape juice not for pumpkin.
ANY TIME WE USE THESE TOOLS FOR CROPS OTHER THAN WHAT THEY ARE CALIBRATED FOR, WE HAVE POTENTIAL ERROR

 

[cenk57]

Looking at USDA numbers pumpkin is not a significant source of yeast fermentable sugar. If one treated the pumpkin like a beer and added malt enzymes the carbohydrate could be utilized. ,,,,, another way say this is pumpkin contains a lot of “sugar free dry extract”, the risk in using my hydrometer or a refractometer is that these tools are calibrated for the mixture typical in grape juice not for pumpkin.
ANY TIME WE USE THESE TOOLS FOR CROPS OTHER THAN WHAT THEY ARE CALIBRATED FOR, WE HAVE POTENTIAL ERROR

Agree with the calibration of the tools not being 100% accurate. As this being for personal use (not for sale), I am not to worried about the accuracy of the final ABV. I am good with a ball park in this instance. Your thought about treating the pumpkin like a beer is interesting. I have never done that, but I love a good experiment. What do you think the result would be if the pumpkin were heated and malt enzymes added? (Would it even need to be heated to activate the enzyme?). I am assuming this would be different than adding A-amylace to clear a starch haze. Then throw the cooled pumpkin mixture into the primary... I am sure this has been done before. Anyone have this experience?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Native starches as pumpkin or corn or RICE get deposited as crystalline molecules. As such they resist hydrophilic water bonds, come to equilibrium at about 18% moisture and are not very reactive to enzymes. The process of heating above the gelatinization temperature creates the condition where the molecule is able to start to absorb water (65C). On Further heating there is a peak temperature (92C) at which the molecule unfolds and the glucose chains are fully exposed/ enzymes are very effective, ,,,, commonly called cooked.
Treating a raw pumpkin starch yeah it reacts slowly, ,,, however a cooked starch will convert quickly. Net effect by cooking/ hydrolyzing the pumpkin there should be about 2.5 times more fermentable sugar.

Agree with the calibration of the tools not being 100% accurate. As this being for personal use (not for sale), I am not to worried about the accuracy of the final ABV. I am good with a ball park in this instance. Your thought about treating the pumpkin like a beer is interesting. I have never done that, but I love a good experiment. What do you think the result would be if the pumpkin were heated and malt enzymes added? (Would it even need to be heated to activate the enzyme?). I am assuming this would be different than adding A-amylace to clear a starch haze. Then throw the cooled pumpkin mixture into the primary... I am sure this has been done before. Anyone have this experience?