Vieux Chateau du Roi

[sour_grapes]

The French are very testy about their appellations. So Vieux Chateau du Roi and the Eclipse Nocturne are, at least in the case of the former for sure, clever workarounds for Chateauneuf du Pape. I like how they're tety about their appellations, but this all starts with them swiping the Papacy from Rome and installing it in Avignon in the early 14th century - but whether it is the Chateau of the Pope (Pape) or the King (Roi) it is my favorite!

Since this picture is in my "wine pictures" folder, let's publish it again!

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

Awesome pic. I hope to get to France next year. Though this first trip I probably won't stray far from Paris.

 

[ceeaton]

Since this picture is in my "wine pictures" folder, let's publish it again!

That's a nice advertisement for UPS Worldwide deliveries. Maybe you can offer them the rights to the image and you could get a few cases of said wine out of the deal?

Don't those tires look a bit small on the "big brown truck".

 

[winemaker81]

I bottled Vieux last weekend. It's surprisingly tasty for a green wine -- cherry and blackberry notes.

Next task is to not touch it for 6 months, then test a bottle every 3 months. I'm planning to do the same with everything I bottled this fall -- the plan is to record tasting notes and have a solid record of how each wine progresses.

 

[ceeaton]

I bottled Vieux last weekend. It's surprisingly tasty for a green wine -- cherry and blackberry notes.

Next task is to not touch it for 6 months, then test a bottle every 3 months. I'm planning to do the same with everything I bottled this fall -- the plan is to record tasting notes and have a solid record of how each wine progresses.

Good luck. I said I'd do that a few years ago, and I'm looking around for all of my notes, if you know what I mean.

 

[winemaker81]

Good luck. I said I'd do that a few years ago, and I'm looking around for all of my notes, if you know what I mean.

I'm sporadic on keeping notes. However, I'm tracking things on my new web site so if I happen to record notes I'll be able to find them.

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

Whether it's the Chateua du Pays or Winexperts Vieux Chateua du Roi one thing I've noticed is the non-listing of Grape Varietals used. Now a traditional Chateauneuf du pape can have up to 13 varietals in it, but rarely is it more than three or five. Does anyone know what's actually in the Chateau du Roi or is it a proprietary mystery?

 

[winemaker81]

I expect it's a mystery. I haven't found anything indicating what the constituent grapes are.

 

[Cellar Vader]

Not to hijack, but since this thread is the most current one regarding the WE SE VCdR, I thought it best to tag along.
I started mine on Dec. 26th. This is my 10th kit wine in 12 months, and have so far been somewhat disappointed with the red blends. So...to help tone down the purported fruitiness I had kept reading about in my preliminary research, added 1 1/2 lbs of sugar to increase the ABV a bit (final is 13.5%.) After racking and clarifying I took a taste. NICE! But, as was the case in several earlier batches of red blends, the mouthfeel was just “flabby” for loss of a better term. So I added 2 tsp of tannin, let it rest 3days, and tasted it again today. HUGE improvement, but I know that only time will tell how this developes. On that note, it sounds like this particular kit drinks well young (6 months?) and doesn’t really develope much with additional years in the cellar.
Question: Has anyone else tried “tweaking” this particular kit? And what were your results?

 

[Boatboy24]

In general, I think most kits benefit from added tannin and oak. Also from barrel time, if you have a barrel. ABV increases may or may not help. Some of the higher end red kits can already clock in at 13-15%, so it all depends on where your starting SG is. The medium and lower end kits tend to be a little lower on the ABV side.

 

[Cellar Vader]

Boatboy24 - Thank you for your input. I have yet to use additional oak, outside of what came in these kits, but would like to experiment that way since I do like a little oakiness in my wines. How much contact time would you recommend if I used a light-toast american oak spiral after my final racking? I dont want to overdo it!

 

[Boatboy24]

I haven't used spirals. I use barrels, or medium toast French cubes. Hopefully, someone with some spiral experience can chime in.

 

[winemaker81]

I don't see any hijacking -- we're talking Vieux so it's all good. And if we stray into tangents? This is a forum on the internet -- it would be bizarre if we didn't stray off topic ...

I didn't make any adjustments to my Vieux as it turned out as I wanted. I have a need for a quicker aging red, and this one fits the bill. If I wanted a heavier, longer aging red I probably would have purchased a different kit. Although I love heavy Rhones so the idea of a heavier version of this one is attractive.

But ya got me thinking -- it would be an interesting experiment to buy 2 kits -- make one "vanilla" and juice up the second one. Off the top of my head I would add tannin and age it with oak -- not sure how that would interact with the overall fruitiness of the wine. This last one bottled at 12.9% so I wouldn't chapitalize it; anything above 11% would be good for me.

I don't have experience with oak spirals, although with any oak product, surface area is key. The more surface area, the faster the oak will affect the wine. Google the spiral manufacturers and see if they offer guidelines.

In general, when aging on oak, test relatively frequently and remove the oak when you think it's close. More oak can be added later, but it's really tough to remove oak flavoring ....

BITD oak barrels and oak chips were the available products. Now days we have a wider variety of products, including dust, cubes, and spirals. I'm wondering if the rough surface area of chips makes a difference in comparison to the relatively smooth surface area of cubes and spirals.

 

[Cellar Vader]

Winemaker81 - Thank you! Good info. I'm "thinking" that since the powdered tannin that I added at clarification seems to have brought it to my likeness, maybe I shouldn't bother with add'l oak spirals at aging. I'm happy with the "feel" of it as it stands, of course it'll have to sit in order for that new kit taste to pass.
I'm still a newbie, but excited about experimenting to get a kit where I like. Well see!

 

[winemaker81]

Glad to be of service!

If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.

But you're experimenting. I recommend letting it bulk age a couple of months then taste it again. If you don't have a wine thief, I recommend getting one. I have two -- a slim glass one that allows for retrieving sample quantities of wine, and a larger one (FermTech, I think) that is big enough to hold a hydrometer. Makes checking SG easy.

After a couple of months, if you are happy you can bottle as you see fit. If you think it needs the oak, you can add it then.

Here's an experiment: if you have a 3/3.5 gallon carboy -- add oak to the carboy and fill it with Vieux, then bottle the remainder. A year from now you can compare the two to see what you like.

My notes from my Vieux are here.

 

[LouisCKpasteur]

This is my go-to table wine. So I still got a few bottles a two years, had one a couple of weeks ago, still seems to be improving.

I got another 12-15 bottles at the one year mark. I start drinking this kit a 7-8 months because it allows me to lay my hands off everything else. BIg big Rhone fan here.

I've called what you describe 'flabby' as 'thin', and though that word is more appropriate to alchohol content that wasn't the case. Should take better notes on the aging process for this kit to determine if there is a particular time slot when it goes slack (bottle shock?).

 

[Cellar Vader]

Glad to be of service!

If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.

But you're experimenting. I recommend letting it bulk age a couple of months then taste it again. If you don't have a wine thief, I recommend getting one. I have two -- a slim glass one that allows for retrieving sample quantities of wine, and a larger one (FermTech, I think) that is big enough to hold a hydrometer. Makes checking SG easy.

After a couple of months, if you are happy you can bottle as you see fit. If you think it needs the oak, you can add it then.

Here's an experiment: if you have a 3/3.5 gallon carboy -- add oak to the carboy and fill it with Vieux, then bottle the remainder. A year from now you can compare the two to see what you like.

My notes from my Vieux are here.

Yep, I have a Wine Thief. I do plan on aging this one in the carboy (first time doing this!) so that I can make adjustments (if needed) on all of the wine at once. There certainly is an advantage, though, of setting some "original" off to the side for future taste comparisons! Thx again!

 

[Cellar Vader]

This is my go-to table wine. So I still got a few bottles a two years, had one a couple of weeks ago, still seems to be improving.

I got another 12-15 bottles at the one year mark. I start drinking this kit a 7-8 months because it allows me to lay my hands off everything else. BIg big Rhone fan here.

I've called what you describe 'flabby' as 'thin', and though that word is more appropriate to alchohol content that wasn't the case. Should take better notes on the aging process for this kit to determine if there is a particular time slot when it goes slack (bottle shock?).

Thanks! I plan to give this a minimum of 6 mos. and see how it is at that time. Actually, I'm thinking around 9 mos. before I probably start hitting it hard, lol!

 

[Cellar Vader]

Glad to be of service!

If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.

But you're experimenting. I recommend letting it bulk age a couple of months then taste it again. If you don't have a wine thief, I recommend getting one. I have two -- a slim glass one that allows for retrieving sample quantities of wine, and a larger one (FermTech, I think) that is big enough to hold a hydrometer. Makes checking SG easy.

After a couple of months, if you are happy you can bottle as you see fit. If you think it needs the oak, you can add it then.

Here's an experiment: if you have a 3/3.5 gallon carboy -- add oak to the carboy and fill it with Vieux, then bottle the remainder. A year from now you can compare the two to see what you like.

My notes from my Vieux are here.

P.S. - Thanks for sharing your note keeping on this batch. It's always helpful to see how other winemakers think, I feel!

 

[winemaker81]

Glad to be of service! I'm going to avoid touching the Vieux for another year or so. I'll post tasting notes when I do.

When I converted my old wine making site to the new one, I found that reading old notes to be valuable. Keeping consistently good notes is a great idea ... although tough in execution over the long term. But even inconsistent notes are better than none.