Vintners Best Elderberry fruit wine base

[Scooter68]

Agree with glop removal. I have a long small brush but hate that job plus it scratches the tubing inside making everything look cloudy/hazy as it passes through. How long do you plan to age it?

 

[winemaker81]

The first glass will age about 15 seconds (I always sample when bottling).

I'll likely pop a cork at 6 months to see how the elderberry is doing. I'm expecting a year before it's really good. This concentrate has elderberry as the last ingredient in the list, so I'm not sure what to expect.

Sometimes things surprise us. A bit OT, but I make limoncello -- steep lemon zest in vodka for 3-6 months, strain, and sweeten to taste with sugar syrup. About 3 years ago I tried using lime zest. It worked, but I considered the experiment a failure -- it smelled good, but was tasteless, especially alongside the lemon version.

Last weekend I opened one of 2 remaining bottles. Figured "what the heck?". Wow, it was good. The flavors matured and it was really good. Guess it just needed time ... but now I only have one bottle left .....

 

[garymc]

Green goo is attracted to latex like a magnet. I put on latex exam gloves, the kind you get a hundred pairs in a box, wash any powder off, then slosh my gloved hands in the must. The gloves will be covered with the goo. I just peel them off and toss.

 

[Stressbaby]

How much "glop" are we talking about here?
I make elderberry at 5#/gallon and I made 7 gallons last year. I had a little glop in the primary bucket but nothing a little vegetable oil didn't cut easily. Maybe a trace in the first carboy but nothing that didn't rinse out.

 

[winemaker81]

The first glop removal seemed like an inch, but it was full of CO2 and had 1# toasted oak chips mixed in, which inflated the amount. The second instance of glop removal was thin.

I racked the wine into a carboy Thursday night (08/02). SG was 1.010. Fermentation has been steady -- the glop made it appear more vigorous than it actually is. But steady is great!

I'll probably let it set for about 3 weeks then rack again, and probably bottle 3-6 weeks after that if all is clear.

At this point I have no idea how I'll finish it. At bottling time I will taste -- if it's good as is, I'll leave it dry. if not, I'll sweeten very lightly. IIRC, elderberry does well as a dry or off-dry wine.

I'm thinking about moving the wine to a 3.5 gallon carboy at the next racking, and put the remainder in another 3.5 and start feeding it sugar. Once it reaches its end, add champagne yeast and keep doing it. The idea is to make a port-style, sweetened to 3-5% residual sugar.

 

[Scooter68]

Think.you would be better off to rack as soon as the SG is below .999 and holds steady for three days. Leaving dead yeast in the batch for that long can create off flavors and smells. Once fermentation is done, rack off the gross Lee's (even when using a no-pulp juice) & give it a dose of K-meta. Then you can let it set for as long as you want.

 

[winemaker81]

The SG is holding steading at 1.000. I admit I'm surprised, I thought it would drop to 0.996-0.998, but it's holding steady. I have a sauvignon blanc kit to bottle today, so I'll have a 5 gallon carboy free. I am going to rack it and fill a 3.5 gallon carboy and let that baby set for a few weeks before bottling. Even if I decide to not sweeten it I'm going to add sorbate. The SG is probably normal for this concentrate ... but experience has taught me to be cautious about renewed fermentation in the bottle.

The remainder will go into the 5 gallon carboy and get its first dose of sugar -- as previously stated, I'm going to feed it until I overwhelm the yeast, then I'll add a champagne yeast and keep going until it, too, is overwhelmed.

Regarding wine setting on the lees for a few weeks, my experience is that limited exposure doesn't damage the wine. Scooter got me thinking, so I read the directions for the kits I have in production (sauvignon blanc, merlot, and Black Forest port) and the instructions call for up to 4 weeks setting on the lees. The white is less time (1 week), the reds more.

That said, I have left a wine the lees too long -- left one for 3 months when I got too busy with other things. It came out "ok" but had an odd aftertaste that I was not eager to reproduce.

 

[Scooter68]

Yes, with some reds the skins are left in extract more color and tannin, with whites normally such exposure is not desired. There is also a difference in the desired fermentation temperatures too.

That one thing about wine making the requires a little research before diving in. Even using the same exact grapes or fruit you can find different recommended approaches to achieve different wine qualities. As you mentioned though, exposure to dead yeast cells is rarely a good thing.

 

[winemaker81]

I racked the elderberry, filling a 3.5 gallon carboy (added 1/4 tsp Ksulfite). I'm going to let this one set for a month or so.

It tastes quite good for a green wine. I suspect I'm not going to sweeten the main batch at all.

The remainder, ~2.25 gallons, went into a 5 galllon carboy. I added 3 cups sugar, 1 cup at a time and stirring for 1 minute with a powered stirring rod after each addition. This brought the SG up to 1.030. I'll check the SG next weekend, and feed it again. I haven't done the math yet to see what my current alcohol yield should be.

 

[winemaker81]

Scooter, you spurred a memory. Very early in my career someone I knew bought pinot noir from the Finger Lakes, NY. He fermented half a 72 F, the other half at 85 F (used a heat lamp, I think). The two wines could not be more different. The cooler fermented one was a lot more floral and ligher in color. The hotter one was MUCH darker (got a lot more color extraction) and had a heavier flavor.

In recent years I've waited until mid-winter to start kits, fermenting them at ~55 F. It takes longer to get them going and the fermentation usually takes 2 weeks, instead of the typical 4-7 days.

I need to buy 2 identical kits -- start one in September and one in December to see what the real differences are.

 

[Scooter68]

"In recent years I've waited until mid-winter to start kits, fermenting them at ~55 F. It takes longer to get them going and the fermentation usually takes 2 weeks, instead of the typical 4-7 days."

Exactly, if you don't have a dedicate room with it's own HVAC then you learn to use the weather to help you.

For me I even prefer to bottle in the summer/warmer times. While it's highly unlikely I like to bottle the wine at it's warmest aging temps to avoid any remote chance of pressure build up. I know it's silly but... if you leave some things to chance then "Chance's" name turns to Murphy and we all know Murphy can bite when and where least expected.

 

[kyle5434]

This evening I sampled some of the Vintner's Harvest based batches that went into bulk aging in early March and were bottled in early June. I did a 3-gallon batch with 71B, and another with RC212, to see which (if either) I preferred before making wine with this year's backyard elderberry harvest (~22 lbs. so far, destemmed, given a citric acid soak to minimize any potentially troublesome bacteria, and stored in the freezer).

The clear winner, for me at this stage anyway, is the RC212. It has a much more refined and rich flavor profile. The 71B has a noticeable amount of "twang" to it. Granted, that could diminish over time. But I'm definitely going with RC212 for this year's elderberry harvest when I make the wine later in the fall.

 

[winemaker81]

Kyle5434, it will be interesting to see the changes over time. Things surprise us!

The elderberry that I'm feeding to become a port-style hasn't done much. I chapatalized it up to 1.030 (from 1.000) and in 5 days time it was fermenting, but at a glacial pace -- SG dropped to 1.027. So I stopped at my local supply store Thursday to get another yeast, figured it wouldn't hurt.

The owner asked me if I had added yeast nutrient.

DUH!
Went home, added 1 tsp each of nutrient and energizer. Checked the SG today and it's down to 1.020. That was what it needed! I'm honestly surprised that I didn't think of it myself.

On an other note, bottled a chocolate peanut butter porter and a sauvignon blanc today. If the weather holds I'm starting an Imperial ale tomorrow, and possibly a metheglin.

I HAVE to! I have 2 carboys that are empty!

 

[kyle5434]

I probably should have stated that I'm going for a dry end product (not a fan of sweet wines), so that's also playing into my taste analysis. If I were planning to back-sweeten, my preferred flavor profile from the yeast might very well be different.

 

[winemaker81]

Some fruit wines are better with a bit of sweetening -- apple being one. My "basic" elderberry is probably going to be dry. I like the flavor so far. It's in the 3.5 gallon and I'll let it set a month or two before bottling.

The other half that I'm feeding? That will be a port style wine, definitely sweet. My original thought was 3-5% ... but after tasting the main batch, I'm thinking 2% residual sugar.

 

[Scooter68]

I probably should have stated that I'm going for a dry end product (not a fan of sweet wines), so that's also playing into my taste analysis. If I were planning to back-sweeten, my preferred flavor profile from the yeast might very well be different.

Keep in mind that some fruit flavors just aren't strong enough until the wine is back-sweetened a little. It doesn't have to be made into a sweet wine or even off-dry, maybe not even to an SG of 1.000 to bring forth the fuller flavors of the fruit. Might be worth your time to test that on a sample. With the help of a friend or family member you could even do it as a blind test so you have two samples one with a very very small amount of sweetener added and the other without. See if you can detect any different.

 

[winemaker81]

Keep in mind that some fruit flavor just aren't strong enough until the wine is back-sweetened a little.

Good point

 

[winemaker81]

I checked the SG Monday evening -- the wine continues to ferment, but it's glacial. Yesterday I purchased a new package of EC-1118.

I received a couple of good suggestions from my local wine shop. One was to aerate the must -- it's fermenting in a carboy, and while I give it a good shake every day, that may be insufficient. So I poured the must into a sanitized primary, and when I poured it back into the carboy I ran it through a screen in the funnel. I've had an ongoing problem with bits of oak chips clogging my wine thief, so this should take care of that problem as well.

Any time I use oak I'm going to use the funnel/screen when racking it the first time.

Typically I make a yeast starter with water and sugar, but this time I used a few ounces of the must. Once the starter foamed up I added it back to the carboy.

Time will tell if these actions speed up the fermentation. SG is currently 1.020. I'm going to do the smart thing and ignore the wine for a week or so. Exactly like not watching a pot boil ....

 

[Scooter68]

In the future why not just use the larger chips that won't get stuck in that wine thief OR go to the spirals and use part of one.

 

[winemaker81]

When I buy more oak chips, I will look at what I'm buying. However, I have 2# of the same on my shelf, something I purchased a while back. Next time I'll put the chips in a hops bag to keep them corraled.

I also located the filter for my large funnel -- when racking back into a carboy, that takes out large chunks as well. If I had realized the chips were going to be a problem, I could have avoided it. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

I started a metheglin Thursday -- put my spices (cinnamon stick, whole cloves, whole allspice -- all crushed gently) in a hops bag, which I manipulate during the daily stirring. So far nothing has escaped.