Welcome suggestions on MLF

[ybl84f1]

Hi all,

Apologies ahead of time for the length of this post, especially since it’s my first.

I’m new to this forum and new to wine making. I just passed the point where I thought I knew something and now I’m at the point where I realize I know nothing – but I am trying. Kit wine attempt #1 was an RJ blush that came out “ok”; it's drinkable but if I was at a restaurant I’d send it back – I’m sure the results are all on me. I’m now on to Wine Expert LODI OLD VINES ZINFANDEL and already I am deviating from the instructions….well kinda.

I decided to split the kit and do an MLF on half of it, so the plan was after fermentation I’d split the wine into two 3g carboys. The fermentation went fine, ABV=10.5, TA (as best I could measure – it was a bit of a challenge) = ~8.4g/L, pH=3.4, and free SO2=~8ppm. (Yes I bought some Vinmetrica equipment). I think that's all within range for MLF.

I racked from the fermentation bucket to a 6 gal carboy, de-gassed it, then racked that first to the "MLF" 3 gal carboy leaving minimal headspace, then the rest to the second “KIT” 3 gal carboy which had more headspace than normally desired.

First question – for the “KIT” I basically continued with all the directions but cut all the additives (sulphite/sorbate, chitosan, kieselsol, oak cubes) in half. Since there was headspace I topped the carboy off with a store-bought Zin. QUESTION:

• Any issues with that approach? With this portion I plan on just following the kit directions and schedule.

For the MLF version I bought Wyeast 4007 online but stupid me, I did not realize it had to be kept cool and you could buy it with an ice pack. Being winter it just happened to arrive very cool in the back of a UPS truck but I don’t know the history. For the “MLF” batch I added ~100mL of it, and ~3g Acti-ML (which I forgot to activate in water and just added it directly to the wine); it’s been a day and according to the air lock it doesn’t appear to be doing anything. Note I did not add any of the additives from the kit to this MLF version. QUESTION:

• Is the MLF dead and should I make a car trip to buy some fresh MLF bacteria?
• Did I miss anything?

My plan is after 3 weeks to start chromatography testing to determine the end of MLF, and then measure SO2 and dose it with whatever Meta it needs and then let it start aging. Any suggestions/guidance in this area?

All feedback welcome and appreciated - thanks ahead of time.

 

[sour_grapes]

Coupla things:

First of all, MLF is not recommended on kits. They are reputed to be already balanced in acid, and MLF will only harm them, not help them. Tim Vandergrift, godfather of kit wines, says that an attempt to do MLF on a kit "will wind up in tears."

Second: I question your ABV value of 10.5%. Upon what do you base this? It seems very low.

 

[ybl84f1]

For ABV the starting SG was 1.076, the ending 0.996. I used an online calculator to get 10.5 (although I just checked another one and got 10.87 ABV).
Thanks.

 

[chitownwine]

Yes mlf will not help the kit. May just want to sulfite and age on some oak cubes or stave for few months then bottle. There are lots of modifications you can do to kits that have been discussed on here And mlf is not one of them.

Personally my best mod was aging my kits in barrel.

 

[Jetcontrails]

I’m not a kit winemaker, but here are my thoughts...

-ML bacteria is not dead.
-Acti-ML will be fine if added directly to wine.
-Skip ML if potassium sorbate has been added.
-After ML, your wine may be a bit flabby as most kits are acid adjusted by manufacturer, so be prepared to adjust acid with tartaric acid after ML.
-Store bought wine is most likely ML postive, so there is a good chance you inoculated your non-ML carboy.
-ML takes a few days to get going. Keep temp between 65-70°.
-Don’t be surprised if you don’t see much, if any airlock activity.
-Degassing is not necessary. CO2 from fermentation will off gas over time and actually provides some protection from oxidation.
-Everything else sounds fine. Keep your nose in the wines and be ready to address off odors immediately should they arise

 

[sour_grapes]

Wow. I have made the WE Eclipse Old Vine Zin kit., and had a starting SG of 1.102. Was this the same kit as yours?

Did this kit have a skins pack? For mine, without the skins, my SG was 1.086, and the skins brought it up to 1.102.

 

[jgmann67]

I’ll join the chorus here.

Agree 100% on MLF and kit wines. It’s not necessary and will end in disaster. MLF converts malic acid into lactic acid. You need to do an MLF when fermenting fresh juice and fresh grape reds and in Chardonnay.

Now let’s talk about the kit you made and would send back if you were at a restaurant. Why? Did it taste bitey or zippy? I’ll give you the best advice EVERYONE gave me as a new wine maker... slow down. Get your method down before jumping to something like an MLF (and fresh grapes... it makes a huge difference).

I make the RJS French Rose for my summer pool wine and it is pretty good for a mid level wine kit. And it gets raves from my wife’s friends. So a couple of thoughts:

Was your wine ready to go in the bottle? Chances are, the answer is probably no. I say that because it should taste close to what you want it to taste and you’re saying (basically) that you hate it.

On taste, I asked if it was fizzy or bitey because most new wine makers don’t properly degas their wines before bottling. Do a poof test on a bottle and see. Poof test: open a bottle of wine and taste it (make some decent headspace in your bottle and notice the flavors); put your thumb over the opening and give it a rigorous 1-2-3 shake (notice how much it fizzes, like a ginger ale); when you remove your thumb, notice how much pressure is in the bottle (by how much of a poof you get); taste the wine again.If the wine is markedly better tasting,give it another 1-2-3 shake, put a stopper in the bottle and put it in the fridgefor a few hours. Taste it again. Any better? I’m betting yes.

Other question - is your wine crystal clear before you bottle? If not, again, you likely rushed to the bottle.

if your wine is properly degassed, crystal clear AND tastes like something you’d drink, then it is ready for the bottle.

Good luck and slow down.

 

[Johnd]

And I’ll chime in too, with a few more words off warning. First, Malolactic Bacteria do not mix well with potassium sorbate, this combo will ruin your wine, make it undrinkable, you’ll have to throw it away.
Second, MLF works on the natural malic acid that comes naturally in grapes, but will not convert the “man-made” malic acid that is used to balance these kits, so you’ll never complete MLF even if you try, and I have.
Third, most folks struggle with Wyeast LAB, it’s not one of the more robust or successful products, so it’s possibly not even working in there.
Lastly, I disagree with @Jetcontrails statement, “-Store bought wine is most likely ML postive, so there is a good chance you inoculated your non-ML carboy.” There is no risk at all of inoculating a carboy of wine with MLB from store bought wine, the sulfite levels alone will prevent this. Sure would save folks a lot of money though, just top off with a bottle of 2 buck chuck instead of buying VP41.
Were I in your shoes, I’d sulfite the MLF batch when finished experimenting, and never add sorbate to it. Good luck!,

 

[Jetcontrails]

Lastly, I disagree with @Jetcontrails statement, “-Store bought wine is most likely ML postive, so there is a good chance you inoculated your non-ML carboy.” There is no risk at all of inoculating a carboy of wine with MLB from store bought wine, the sulfite levels alone will prevent this.

As I mentioned, I’m not a kit winemaker and am not knowledgeable on added kit ingredients. I wasn’t aware that DL-Malic vs L-Malic was added to kits. ML conversion would certainly be different or non-existent with synthetic Malic.

As for you disagreeing @Johnd, fair enough. Carry on and share as you see fit. As for my winery, I don’t allow any “undesired” ML cross contamination at any stage in the wine’s life. I don’t care if the wine has been SO2’s to 1 mg/l molecular, sterile cross-flowed, with +16% alcohol. I am not going to mix ML+ with ML- without purpose. It would be nice if my comment were in fact false, because it would save me and many other winemakers much effort, time and money.

My point... contrary to popular belief, bacterial cross contamination is a very real concern, even with finished wines as many red wines are not sterile filtered. SO2, at levels in table wine, merely suppresses growth and/or replication of LAB and does not kill it. So, for example, if a wine were bottled with no sterile filtration, with a free SO2 of 0.5 mg/l molecular, and then, that bottle were diluted by combining it with an unsulfited bottle of identical wine, you theoretically have cut your protective molecular SO2 in half. That reduction could EASILY be sufficient to allow the LAB to begin growth.

Another example, at the winery, after we empty sulfited “bottle ready” wine from barrels, the barrels are rinsed, steamed and gassed with SO2 or O3. O3 kills gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Within a month or two, barrels are refilled with fresh wine. How often do you think we add new LAB to the used barrels, take your pick of LAB... VP41, CH16, Alpha, etc.)??? Never. ML positive barrels come right back to life after all that sanitation and gassing. If we have a new barrel that won’t fire off with ML, we may then add LAB or we simply cross contaminate with wine from a used barrel.

Anyhow, as I mentioned earlier, I know nothing about kit wine and for that reason I should have refrained from comment. Always learning! I do enjoy reading what many of you are doing. Keep it up. Cheers.

 

[Johnd]

As I mentioned, I’m not a kit winemaker and am not knowledgeable on added kit ingredients. I wasn’t aware that DL-Malic vs L-Malic was added to kits. ML conversion would certainly be different or non-existent with synthetic Malic.

As for you disagreeing @Johnd, fair enough. Carry on and share as you see fit. As for my winery, I don’t allow any “undesired” ML cross contamination at any stage in the wine’s life. I don’t care if the wine has been SO2’s to 1 mg/l molecular, sterile cross-flowed, with +16% alcohol. I am not going to mix ML+ with ML- without purpose. It would be nice if my comment were in fact false, because it would save me and many other winemakers much effort, time and money.

My point... contrary to popular belief, bacterial cross contamination is a very real concern, even with finished wines as many red wines are not sterile filtered. SO2, at levels in table wine, merely suppresses growth and/or replication of LAB and does not kill it. So, for example, if a wine were bottled with no sterile filtration, with a free SO2 of 0.5 mg/l molecular, and then, that bottle were diluted by combining it with an unsulfited bottle of identical wine, you theoretically have cut your protective molecular SO2 in half. That reduction could EASILY be sufficient to allow the LAB to begin growth.

Another example, at the winery, after we empty sulfited “bottle ready” wine from barrels, the barrels are rinsed, steamed and gassed with SO2 or O3. O3 kills gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Within a month or two, barrels are refilled with fresh wine. How often do you think we add new LAB to the used barrels, take your pick of LAB... VP41, CH16, Alpha, etc.)??? Never. ML positive barrels come right back to life after all that sanitation and gassing. If we have a new barrel that won’t fire off with ML, we may then add LAB or we simply cross contaminate with wine from a used barrel.

Anyhow, as I mentioned earlier, I know nothing about kit wine and for that reason I should have refrained from comment. Always learning! I do enjoy reading what many of you are doing. Keep it up. Cheers.

Your comments are much appreciated, my intention wasn't to have you refrain from commenting, that's not what this forum is for, quite the contrary. I appreciate your position and experience and the way that you handle your winemaking. Like you, I'm acutely aware of the presence and viability of MLB in barrels, all of mine would surely kick off MLF in a new wine when introduced, though my wines have already gone through MLF before they hit the barrel. When I was doing kits and wine from grapes at the same time, all of my grape wine barrels (reds that underwent MLF) were all labelled to prevent a kit wine from ever being inadvertently introduced into that barrel.

Having made lots of kits in my earlier winemaking days, the only reason to take issue with your statement was to keep kit winemakers from getting freaked out about using store bought wine to top up their kit wines, whether they be in barrels or carboys, this is a practice that's been going on for decades. Though it's only anecdotal evidence, I've not ever heard of a kit wine undergoing MLF as the result of MLB contamination from a store bought wine.

How would we know if a kit underwent MLF? One way for sure, most all kit producers include potassium sorbate as a "standard" additive to their kits, in the presence of active MLF, we know that sorbate will cause a geranium flavor in the wine which ruins it. Granted, not all kit winemakers use the sorbate, but its use is widespread enough that surely we'd have been warned off of using store bought wines to top up our kits were it a threat. Biologically and chemically, I can't tell you why it doesn't happen, but I know of no instances of this occurring.

 

[ybl84f1]

Wow – thank you everyone for taking the time for all the in-depth and wide-ranging feedback, much appreciated and I’m taking it all to heart. Here’s some responses to various questions/comment but first a quick recap and update.

First, after de-gassing I did the Kieselsol & Chitosan, I then separated the 6g into 2 separate 3g carboys, one is following the instructions religiously (adding half the kit's Sulphite/Sorbate), the other (“MLF carboy”) I skipped the Sulphite/Sorbate and then did an MLF test on it which showed a very good response to malic acid. (See attachment. The other wine next to it largely lacking malic acid is a store-bought wine). And apologies but against all the expert advice and because I’m the guy that has to touch the wet paint to believe the “wet paint” sign I decided to give it a go, so at this point I have 2 carboys – one with the stock kit, the other presumably going through MLF.

@chitownwine – thanks, I am not at the point where I have barrels yet but appreciate the suggestion, and as I spend time here I’m hoping to pick up the mods that folks do. BTW the kit did come with oak cubes which are in the “kit” carboy.

@Jetcontrails – interesting comment on the de-gassing – and yes there has been _zero_ airlock activity after 2 days. I assumed from everything I read I’d see something by now, thanks.

@sour_grapes – “Did this kit have a skins pack?” Yes, although I didn’t think about the skin pack changing the starting SG and now I’m trying to remember exactly when/how I measured it that day. I might have measured it just after throwing the skins in. My bad - I could be very off here. Ugh.

@jgmann67 – I’m kinda trying to forget that first kit, I had zero idea what I was doing and my brother-in-law was helping me. I was kinda an idiot for buying the kit to begin with - did it on a whim. Anyways I do know we didn’t abide by the schedule in the instructions – it sat a few extra weeks in the bucket, and a few extra weeks in the carboy with headspace. It isn’t “fizzy” at all but has kind of an immediate “sharp” maybe acidic taste to it, and although drinkable it’s just not enjoyable. Sry I haven’t been doing this long enough to do a good job of describing it. Yes the wine was clear however it tasted that way before I bottled it. (I have a friend that says he’ll distill it into brandy if I want LOL).

@Johnd – the ML bacteria went into the second carboy without potassium sorbate (which yes is part of the kit), but your comment “will not convert the ‘man-made’ malic acid that is used to balance these kits” is eye-opening– wow I had not read this anywhere, didn't know that "was a thing", and it might explain why nothing appears to be happening. “Were I in your shoes, I’d sulfite the MLF batch when finished experimenting, and never add sorbate to it.” Thanks much, this very well may be the path I head down.

Everyone – thanks for chiming in, obviously there is a tremendous amount of knowledge and talent in this forum. As is usually the case in many of my hobbies I fear I may become addicted to this one and spend countless hours pursuing it; it appears this forum is a great place to advance my learnings.

 

[Johnd]

@ybl84f1 , I get the “wet paint” theory, it’s my mode of operation as well. I put a 6 gallon kit through MLF in a barrel, with about the same results as yours, little to none. In the end, the wine was just fine, as I never use sorbate in a dry wine anyway. Good luck!!