When to rack from secondary

[BigDaveK]

Most of my wines finish in secondary, on average, in two weeks or less. That's not the issue.

My dessert wines will go for a long time, easily more than a month, a very obvious very active fermentation. Being step-fed they went into secondary already over 13% ABV. I'm wondering about my two pear dessert wines, still going like gangbusters, and with considerable gross lees. Should I transfer/rack even though fermentation obviously isn't done, just to get them off the gross lees? I'm approaching 5 weeks with one of them. New territory for me.

 

[user 32114]

I don't recommend it, but i have had pear , apple , strawberry and blackberry on gross lees for a entire 2 years and was great,
but mostly I rack every 3 months, but that's just how I do racking's,
Dawg

 

[Hazelemere]

I would rack the pear wjnes without potassium metabisulphite above SG 1.010 and with sulphite below SG 1.010 1/4 tsp per 4.5 or 5 Imperial gallon carboy.

 

[David Violante]

Dave it sounds a lot like extended maceration territory. While you probably don’t need to do EM for non-grape fruits, I have a feeling the principal is the same for the conditions that allow for EM to work. pH low enough, no oxygen, still off-gassing, closed container that allows for CO2 release by airlock…

I have done an EM on grape wines, which includes being on gross lees for up to 6 weeks in a closed container that allows for off-gassing. I imagine the same would hold true for your pear wines. You certainly could rack and let the fermentation continue, or… since you have two, rack one and keep the other on the lees and compare them.

EM is also different from sur lie ageing and battonage where you leave them on the fine lees and occasionally stir them up to impart other/more flavors.

It would seem after EM experimentation that there’s a lot of goodness in there. I believe you have more time than you think for your wine to be in contact with them. Not super long, but I think up to 3 months if I remember correctly. I’ll have to look.

 

[BigDaveK]

Dave it sounds a lot like extended maceration territory. While you probably don’t need to do EM for non-grape fruits, I have a feeling the principal is the same for the conditions that allow for EM to work. pH low enough, no oxygen, still off-gassing, closed container that allows for CO2 release by airlock…

I have done an EM on grape wines, which includes being on gross lees for up to 6 weeks in a closed container that allows for off-gassing. I imagine the same would hold true for your pear wines. You certainly could rack and let the fermentation continue, or… since you have two, rack one and keep the other on the lees and compare them.

EM is also different from sur lie ageing and battonage where you leave them on the fine lees and occasionally stir them up to impart other/more flavors.

It would seem after EM experimentation that there’s a lot of goodness in there. I believe you have more time than you think for your wine to be in contact with them. Not super long, but I think up to 3 months if I remember correctly. I’ll have to look.

Well, I had to do a quick read on EM and it sounds like that's what I'm doing, unintentionally and at least in principle. And you're right about the time - I read up to 100 days.

Both wines started with all fruit, no water. One is different in that it had 3 cloves per gallon added. Last time I tasted I really liked the cloves, noticeable but not overpowering. I think 4-5 cloves/gallon would have been too much.

I haven't taken an SG or tasted for a little while. I'll have to do that and then decide what to do.

 

[David Violante]

If you’re going to open the containers to do some testing and tasting, I would probably consider racking then. One of the reasons EM works is that there’s no oxygen introduced into the environment. I suppose you could try to purge the airspace or sparge the wine with an inert gas, but the traditionalist in me says once you crack it, it’s cracked.

If you decide to rack and it’s not finished fermenting it should continue on its path without the gross lees. I would consider putting them in the fridge to get as much compaction as possible and recuperate what you can from them. I think the only other reason I would consider racking is if I wanted to get the wine off something in the container (like the cloves or oak I couldn’t get out…).

It all sounds good and I’m interested in what you decide to do! Keep us posted, these are great experiences!

 

[winemaker81]

Dave, if you have active fermentation, this is the opposite of EM, which is aging wine on the pomace. Additionally, there is a huge difference between a red wine and a light fruit wine, such as pear, as the red will mask off-flavors where the pear cannot.

Doing step feeding in a closed container slows down the process. For future reference, step feed in an open container, stirring well each day. Problems arise faster when the gross lees settle. Don't move to secondary until you're done step feeding.

The Chocolate Raspberry Port kit I started on 14 March 2022 had OG 1.116, which fermented down to 1.018. I bumped the SG up to 1.030, and it fermented down to 0.998 -- all in 2 weeks. The ABV is nearly 18%.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2022-chocolate-raspberry-port/
In your place, I'd let the wine settle a few days, then rack off the gross lees.

 

[David Violante]

Bryan, I'm happy to have you nit-pick my nit-picking, in the interest of clarity for all of us walking this path with Dave. Let me see if I have this correct... and this is as much for me...

As I understand it, maceration is the softening and breaking down of the plant tissue, and begins with the crush but can also begin with cold-soaking or carbonic techniques. Adding pectic enzyme enhances this process as the enzymes work to break down the pectin in the plant walls.

Fermentation can begin at any point in the maceration process if the conditions are favorable, and maceration continues to occur throughout the fermentation process.

At some point, we must decide when we've gotten everything we want from the pulp. We typically take the free-run wine and pressed wine from the skins/pulp as the SG approaches 1.010 or so, and continue on with the wine, discarding the rest. This time on the pulp imparts organoleptics, aromatics, phenols, flavenoids, anthrocyans, polyphenols, etc... White wines have less of these characteristics (less time on the pulp) and red wines have more (more time on the pulp).

Sometimes we keep the wine on the pulp as maceration continues and fermentation winds down (extended maceration). Since there is a lot of potential food, for a lot of potentially uninvited guests, maintaining a good pH, no oxygen (closed container under airlock burping CO2), etc... inhibits unwanted guests but continues to allow for extraction of the above items from the pulp. Somewhere down the road, we reach the end-point of what we want to, can, or should extract, and depending on what we want, we must remove the wine somewhere in that timeline prior to the pulp giving up things we may not want.

One resource I found in my research (this is on mulberries though) indicated that "long maceration during the mulberry wine fermentation caused a decrease in the level of volatile compounds, including alcohols, acids, terpenoids, norisoprenoids, benzenes and sulphur compounds. This significantly weakened the fruity and floral aromas and the sensory complexity of the mulberry wine." (Journal of the Institute of Brewing, 2018).

Nashi Orchards (WA) does EM on one of their pear ciders because it imparts notes of baking spices, among other things. Conversely, research from Beverages (2019) indicated that (some) non-macerated apples gave up more phenols than those macerated pre-fermentation (cold soak?). However, they only chose 4 apple types and macerated for up to 2 hours. Hardly a blink in the life of a wine.

Here's where I think I am today, and I'm very interested in the experiences of others: Grapes can be under EM for quite some time and can lead to greater smell, taste, mouthfeel, etc... What are the points in the timeline for other fruits?

 

[winemaker81]

@David Violante, nice write-up!

The note regarding Nashi Orchards makes me wonder if it's EM or sur lie / battonage. I read a report on the Australian Wine Institute site that a majority of commercial wineries doing EM didn't appear to understand the effects of EM, which is both scary and amusing. I am questioning things like this more and more ....

 

[Raptor99]

Here's where I think I am today, and I'm very interested in the experiences of others: Grapes can be under EM for quite some time and can lead to greater smell, taste, mouthfeel, etc... What are the points in the timeline for other fruits?

This is my question too.

 

[BigDaveK]

If you decide to rack and it’s not finished fermenting it should continue on its path without the gross lees. I would consider putting them in the fridge to get as much compaction as possible and recuperate what you can from them. I think the only other reason I would consider racking is if I wanted to get the wine off something in the container (like the cloves or oak I couldn’t get out…).

I'm sure it would keep going.
A couple months ago one of my mint wines got stuck around 1.020. Didn't budge for a week. For the heck of it I used my turkey baster and drew off about a 1/4 cup from (I think) a pear wine recently put into secondary. By the next morning it had obviously started back up. It worked.

 

[David Violante]

@David Violante, nice write-up!

The note regarding Nashi Orchards makes me wonder if it's EM or sur lie / battonage. I read a report on the Australian Wine Institute site that a majority of commercial wineries doing EM didn't appear to understand the effects of EM, which is both scary and amusing. I am questioning things like this more and more ....

Bryan, thank you! ...and good question, here's their write-up: "This russetted heirloom pear underwent an extended maceration and fermentation on the skins to create a medium-sweet perry. Organically grown in Sedro Woolley, WA. Very juicy with a solid backbone of acidity and notes of baking spices. Available in 375 ml bottles at the orchard. ABV: 6.6%"

It makes me think they did some time on the pulp, then fermentation, as that's the order of their write-up. Could be marketing though, making a write-up that sounds a particular way. It does make you wonder though... maybe I'll give them a buzz...

 

[BigDaveK]

Doing step feeding in a closed container slows down the process. For future reference, step feed in an open container, stirring well each day. Problems arise faster when the gross lees settle. Don't move to secondary until you're done step feeding.

It was mostly open.
Started at 1.085, let it go to 1.010. Brought it back up to 1.060 with a half dose of nutrient. Let it go to 1.010 AGAIN, brought it back up to 1.060 and a half dose of nutrient. Transferred to secondary around 1.032. Getting some serious alcohol here, it's got to be crapping out soon.

During primary (about 10 days) it formed a hard thick cap that got brown, which I associate with oxidation. For better or worse, I just wanted to get in in secondary.

 

[BigDaveK]

I didn't think a simple question would lead to such interesting responses and a whole new area to explore. Since this is WMT I should have known better.

Had a chance to re-read about EM. I guess I'm NOT doing it for the simple reason that I strained off the pulp to go into secondary. But this really made me curious. The next time I do a 3 gallon batch I'll keep a gallon on the pulp to see where it goes. I may wait till next year, maybe not - the only things in the freezer I have in sufficient quantity now are raspberries, cranberries, ground cherries, and kielbasa.

 

[winemaker81]

This thread makes me appreciate WMT -- it's wonderful conversing with adults, unlike most of the internet!

It makes me think they did some time on the pulp, then fermentation, as that's the order of their write-up. Could be marketing though, making a write-up that sounds a particular way. It does make you wonder though... maybe I'll give them a buzz...

The write-up sounds more like cold soak than EM. That makes more sense.

Started at 1.085, let it go to 1.010. Brought it back up to 1.060 with a half dose of nutrient. Let it go to 1.010 AGAIN, brought it back up to 1.060 and a half dose of nutrient. Transferred to secondary around 1.032. Getting some serious alcohol here, it's got to be crapping out soon.

During primary (about 10 days) it formed a hard thick cap that got brown, which I associate with oxidation. For better or worse, I just wanted to get in in secondary.

Those are large steps, 1.010 back up to 1.060. I've had problems with large steps -- next time I feed I'm thinking 1.010 to 1.020, even if I'm feeding every day.

Apple and pear brown quickly. When the cap turned brown, I'd considering removing the cap. The wine itself shouldn't oxidize.

 

[BigDaveK]

Those are large steps, 1.010 back up to 1.060. I've had problems with large steps -- next time I feed I'm thinking 1.010 to 1.020, even if I'm feeding every day.

Apple and pear brown quickly. When the cap turned brown, I'd considering removing the cap. The wine itself shouldn't oxidize.

Yes, the cap concerned me, mainly because I wasn't sure if it would adversely affect the flavor. If I have another good pear harvest next year I'll have to work on keeping everything submerged, just out of curiosity. I have a food safe screen for my 2 gallon buckets but not the big buckets. A weighted brew bag works for smaller quantities of flavor ingredients but when the entire must is pulp it becomes more challenging.

I agree the steps were large but it worked. Could be dumb luck. I did 5 dessert wines this year, all still in bulk, and I think I'm done with them for a while, at least until next year.

Silly question for you, Bryan - had to taste the pear dessert. Still fermenting but slowed considerably. SG a bit over 1.020. Even though there's a boatload of alcohol I taste wonderful pear first followed by the clove, alcohol isn't kick in the face obvious. I really like it right now. Does that imply I have the proverbial "balance"?

 

[winemaker81]

Silly question for you, Bryan - had to taste the pear dessert. Still fermenting but slowed considerably. SG a bit over 1.020. Even though there's a boatload of alcohol I taste wonderful pear first followed by the clove, alcohol isn't kick in the face obvious. I really like it right now. Does that imply I have the proverbial "balance"?

Sounds like it to me.

If you're happy with it, rack it and stick it in the fridge for 2 days to stop the fermentation. Remove from the fridge and add sorbate + K-meta before it warms up. Given the amount of alcohol your numbers indicate, it's probably close to done anyway.

 

[Terryfirma]

I didn't think a simple question would lead to such interesting responses and a whole new area to explore. Since this is WMT I should have known better.

Had a chance to re-read about EM. I guess I'm NOT doing it for the simple reason that I strained off the pulp to go into secondary. But this really made me curious. The next time I do a 3 gallon batch I'll keep a gallon on the pulp to see where it goes. I may wait till next year, maybe not - the only things in the freezer I have in sufficient quantity now are raspberries, cranberries, ground cherries, and kielbasa.

Are you going to ferment that Kielbasa?!!

 

[David Violante]

Nashi Orchards follow up:

Yesterday I spoke with Jim who crafted the Perry. Super nice guy who was very interested in what we were all about. I'm sending him a link to WMT. The back story is that he received a bunch of pears that were super ripe and he had to do something immediately. The pulp was soft to the point of beyond being able to be pressed, so it sounds like he cold soaked them. In fermentation the cap seemed to oxidize a little and when fermentation was complete they removed the wine off the gross lees from the bottom, but salvaged the skins that were still floating and continued to let the wine sit on them for a bit longer. He doesn't remember the numbers and is not sure he could do it again if he wanted to but that it tasted great. Jim, if you get on here and have anything different from what I remember of our conversation, please make any corrections. I was driving and couldn't take notes.

Additionally, he suggested we reach out to some cider companies that might be venturing into cold soaking and EM and thought Tattiebogle CiderWorks would be a good start, and possibly some French companies as well.

They are now on my list of things to do.

 

[BigDaveK]

Are you going to ferment that Kielbasa?!!

What's so funny?

If I chop the kielbasa and boil, chill overnight, I could get rid of most of the fat. I haven't had to deal with a protein haze (yet) but I imagine it would be substantial. And I think the yeast would like the abundance of amino acids.

Gee, almost sounds like I've given kielbasa wine some thought.