Which Acid, and does it matter?

[back2it]

I am running out of malic acid. Now being a cheap skate, I am reluctant to buy more malic as I have a BIG bag of tartaric to hand.

I have been using acid based on the fruit I am using. Most of them have malic so that’s what I use, but I am wondering if I can substitute tartaric and if it will make a difference?

Thanks

 

[winemaker81]

It will make a difference, but it may not be a problem, IF you like the taste.

You're used to the tang of malic acid, so that will be lessened. I suggest you try tartaric in a small quantity, say 1 liter, and see if you like it.

 

[back2it]

Play time

 

[winemaker81]

I make primarily grape wines, so I keep tartaric on hand. I do have quantities of citric and acid blend on hand, although I phased out acid blend as there's no telling what the blend actually is. I use citric and blend when making K-meta solution, to use 'em up. Tartaric gets used up normally.

 

[back2it]

Agreed, I don't use a blend and never have for exactly the reason that I dont know what is in it. I also have an aversion to citric, logical or not, it is there.

I mostly makew fruit wines and use malic because that seems to be the prevelant acid in the fruits I use but do have tartaric because I purchased all three at the beginning of my journey, mainly because I had no idea what I needed (or was doing). It was a throw enough and some will stick aproach. I suppose that still applies with the exception that I can actually drink the concoctions I now make

Still need to learn more.

 

[Sailor323]

It probably won't make a huge difference. Malic acid is milder than tartaric so you may notice a slightly more tart taste in the wine.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Which acid you use will make a difference BUT most people haven’t had access to clean acids so they won’t be able to taste the difference.

* MALIC produces sharp notes, it is the difference between tasting a pie cherry and a Bing cherry, a rhubarb wine where the acid is removed by fermenting with Malurvurn B yeast is flabby, more like a punch. Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF or wild lactic fermentation so if I see pH creep up on apple containing products I will not replace it with malic. Malic is fast on the tongue/ has a pKa near the formulated pH so it jumps to pKa2 quickly.
* CITRIC produces a fruity flavor which reminds me of oranges. Citric is cheap/ chemically synthesized/ widely used. It is used in a lot of places where a generic acid is wanted. It is a little more sharp (faster on the tongue) than tartaric. If fermentation there is a risk of metabolism producing a dairy note.
LACTIC a dairy or cheese like flavor. Not as sharp meaning the pKa is above formulating pH.
TARTARIC is a good general purpose acid. Less sharp than malic and citric, more sharp than lactic. It is a good replacement for malic since it will be easier to drink but still give some impression of sharpness.
PHOSPHORIC is chemically synthesized so it is cheap/ work bought it by the tanker truck. Has sharp notes a bit more than malic/ a low pKa. Has three H+ so is nice for buffering. I will use it to replace malic lost in wild lactic infections since it won’t be metabolized. Looks bad on a natural food label since it is a chemical/ sometimes hidden as work called it water treatment knowing water was part of the formula.
SULFURIC not intentionally used in food systems. Not as stable Ie anytime we add K metabisulphite for ReDox control in wine, or SO2 gas to dried apricots we will produce trace amounts of SO4. Mild, ~not easy to name.

 

[back2it]

@Rice_Guy
As always, above and beyond. Not just information but something that will enhance my overall understanding of this process.

Thank you

 

[BigDaveK]

Too bad you have an aversion to citric, @back2it. After multiple batches I wouldn't use anything else in some berry and flower wines. Crisp and fruity. It's cheap in larger quantities (not the wine supply sizes) and has a boatload of uses around the house.

 

[Rice_Guy]

yes, fruity,

Crisp and fruity and has a boatload of uses around the house.

and works well for descaling the DW still, , or the heater on the washer in the bakery.

 

[back2it]

I have reviewed and revised many of my prejudices since joining this forum, and this seems like another that I need to look at again

 

[wineview]

Which acid you use will make a difference BUT most people haven’t had access to clean acids so they won’t be able to taste the difference.

* MALIC produces sharp notes, it is the difference between tasting a pie cherry and a Bing cherry, a rhubarb wine where the acid is removed by fermenting with Malurvurn B yeast is flabby, more like a punch. Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF or wild lactic fermentation so if I see pH creep up on apple containing products I will not replace it with malic. Malic is fast on the tongue/ has a pKa near the formulated pH so it jumps to pKa2 quickly.
* CITRIC produces a fruity flavor which reminds me of oranges. Citric is cheap/ chemically synthesized/ widely used. It is used in a lot of places where a generic acid is wanted. It is a little more sharp (faster on the tongue) than tartaric. If fermentation there is a risk of metabolism producing a dairy note.
LACTIC a dairy or cheese like flavor. Not as sharp meaning the pKa is above formulating pH.
TARTARIC is a good general purpose acid. Less sharp than malic and citric, more sharp than lactic. It is a good replacement for malic since it will be easier to drink but still give some impression of sharpness.
PHOSPHORIC is chemically synthesized so it is cheap/ work bought it by the tanker truck. Has sharp notes a bit more than malic/ a low pKa. Has three H+ so is nice for buffering. I will use it to replace malic lost in wild lactic infections since it won’t be metabolized. Looks bad on a natural food label since it is a chemical/ sometimes hidden as work called it water treatment knowing water was part of the formula.
SULFURIC not intentionally used in food systems. Not as stable Ie anytime we add K metabisulphite for ReDox control in wine, or SO2 gas to dried apricots we will produce trace amounts of SO4. Mild, ~not easy to name.

Are you removing malic acid during MLF? Does 71B act similarly as doing MLF?

“Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF”

 

[winemaker81]

Are you removing malic acid during MLF? Does 71B act similarly as doing MLF?

“Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF”

MLB, if allowed to run to completion, eats all of the malic acid and emits milder lactic acid.

71B typically east 25-30% of the malic acid. Nothing in Lallemand's description says anything about the output of the yeast, other than alcohol.

So while both eat malic acid, the result is different.

 

[Raptor99]

I try to use the acid that is predominant in the fruit. For blueberry wine, I use citric acid, for hard cider, I use malic acid. I sometimes also add some acid blend in the mix to provide a variety of acids.

My goal is to emphasize the natural fruit flavor. If you add tartaric acid to blueberry wine, it won't taste as much like blueberries. This is an area that is often ignored. The type of acid you add will affect the final flavor.