Wine Cellar I need your advice and tips on building

[Sammyk]

Dave we are not open to the public we are just a shipping company that grows aquatic plants in the greenhouse and breeds koi on our 2.5 acre farm. Locals can pick up their orders at the Farmers Market where we sell for 10 weeks every spring. To much of a hassle allowing customers on the premises. AND most of all we prefer to remain that way as we like our privacy.

 

[DaveL]

Still like the idea of a waterfall in the wine cellar, lol.

 

[jswordy]

The perforated pipe around the base is a good idea.

Think hard about how to deal with the the humidity, because once that thing is built it will be hard to modify. If your summers are like TN summers and it is humid in there, you are going to have moist air against cool concrete and it will sweat.

The floor drain and floor slant are great suggestions, too.

I would not build with block walls. I can get some pictures of an underground house built two farms over from me that was used as a private shot house and gambling den when I first moved here. The top was a conventional roof, but the walls were all underground, built into a hill. The block walls are literally caved in, and it had to be abandoned to the elements. So you walk into this place that had to be great at one time, with bedrooms, kitchen, everything still there but the walls are all pushed in.

I think the reason for that was the high groundwater levels we get here in winter. I'm assuming you have the same concerns.

Let us know how the precast inquiries turn out. They can build modular underground homes with those things. I still think it'll be cheaper than scratch built. There's a company down here in AL that does a precast 6 x 10 x 6 installed for $3,800.

There's a company in Oklahoma making a 7-6 x 10-8 x 7 (L x W x H) that looks like it was made for your hill.

If you want an even larger one, I understand some companies can cast them like doublewide trailers and put the two halves together with a sealant.

 

[jswordy]

Dave we are not open to the public we are just a shipping company that grows aquatic plants in the greenhouse and breeds koi on our 2.5 acre farm. Locals can pick up their orders at the Farmers Market where we sell for 10 weeks every spring. To much of a hassle allowing customers on the premises. AND most of all we prefer to remain that way as we like our privacy.

I can relate! I used to sell Boer goats off my place. PITA. It took one time to find 3 were missing the day after someone had come to look at buying them for me to quit doing that. It eventually was too much of a hassle to market them, so we went all cattle.

 

[Sammyk]

jswordy please clarify what you are saying about sweat. Because we have a crawl space under our home and a block foundation and a dirt floor there is no problem of sweat in the crawl space in the 13 years we have lived here.

 

[Sammyk]

Please note

Please note, I have asked Mike to combine both threads or delete this one because I accidentally started a 2nd thread and it is confusing to us and others.

Please post any additional thoughts on this thread.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/photos-land-wine-cellar-37075/

I honestly did not mean to start a 2nd thread.

 

[Sammyk]

I did ask Mike to either merge or delete the other thread so it is not so confusing. So please just use this thread.

Jim and Dave we have read your thoughts and very grateful for your responses.

Jim the place in OK - we did call and they no longer make those shelters but thanks for putting us on to that idea.

We did find a place about 15 miles away from us but they are closed on Fridays. Can you believe that? but we will call them back on Monday.

I am still checking on septic tanks and am waiting for some calls back. Dang voice mails.
We would have never thought of those options so thank you very much!

 

[Julie]

Sammy,

I moved your thread with the pics to this thread since there were only six posts and this one had three pages of posts.

 

[jswordy]

jswordy please clarify what you are saying about sweat. Because we have a crawl space under our home and a block foundation and a dirt floor there is no problem of sweat in the crawl space in the 13 years we have lived here.

First YAAAY for Julie!

Still damp air and cool concrete walls makes for condensation. I have a pole barn with a sheet metal roof that is uninsulated (came with the place), and in the spring/summer mornings it literally rains inside because the metal has got cold at night and condensed the water out of the air.

Your crawlspace does not sweat because there are vents around your building to keep it aired out. Close that all up tight and your floor will start to rot in time from the dampness.

It is humid here, don't know about there. That's why I say to seal and insulate the concrete from the soil around it. If it is not sealed, moisture can migrate right through the concrete wall.

You will grow mold and mildew spores if you do not have a way of keeping humidity decent and keeping it vented somewhat. They will first grow on your bottle labels because of the nutrients there. And everything in there that can rust will rust. In the South we have an opposite wine cellar situation from the North. Here, we have excess humidity, not too little. So think about a dehumidifier with the drain line plumbed into your perf-pipe drain you will put around the bottom on the outside of the shelter.

Don't need that if it is just a storm shelter, but for wine storage and to make it useful for other things, you do.

On the septic tanks, I did not mean to use septic tanks. What I meant was that most septic tank makers also can and do make these underground shelter rooms, since they are in the prefab concrete business.

In the shelter pic I posted, the only thing I would do differently is to lay about a foot or two of soil over the top. The sun beating on the concrete has to heat up the inside the way it is there. I'd want to be able to mow the whole thing except the front.

 

[DaveL]

Definetly want to waterproof whatever your walls are. Also you can use a water transpoting bopard against the wall and backfill with a porous fill like #57 stone agaist the board and wall about 12 inches thick. This transports the water to the drain around the foundation.

 

[Sammyk]

First off, thank you Julie for moving everything to one thread for me. It is much appreciated.

To answer Jim's question we have very high humidity here in the summer. Typically we have 3 to 4 months of 90 degree weather with the high humidity.

So we found a place about 20 miles from here that makes tornado shelters. We drove up there and saw the shelter and spent 2 hours talking to the owner. We actually went down inside of the unit.

Details are it is a 6' x 8' and 8 person tornado shelter that is FEMA approved. We would think it would be hard pressed to get 8 people in it at one time but he told us average time spent in a tornado shelter is 17 minutes. I only mention this because it would take about that time to add or remove or add wine.

It is made of 6000 psi concrete reinforced with #3 cage rebar that has 3" concrete walls and 4-1/2" cement on the top and bottom. The door is an 80 pound steel door.

Price delivered and installed is $4500.00 I suppose most of the price is because of the FEMA endorsement.

It is typically set in the ground at 3' depth with about 2 feet of dirt over the top except where the door is set in the shelter to allow entrance. The door is set in at a slanted angle so that debris from a tornado would not be straight on and would be veered off. The door is air tight. The door is not in the photo shown but it can be seen in the attached photos where it would go.

There are 2 vents on the top (the photo shown here was an older model that only had one vent) to allow moisture to escape and air in for tornado protection. The unit can be modified to remove one or both of vents.

One other point it comes in 2 pieces and you can see the "seams" in the unit. The reason for this is because of the weight, it has to be delivered on 2 trucks.
The seams are finished off with epoxy once the unit is in place in the ground.

We are still waiting to hear from the contractor on his price and how he thinks it will be built.

 

[DaveL]

Thats an interesting concept. How much rom do the stairs take up? Are you thinking Bulk aging storage, bottle storage or both?
Space seems a bit small. Have you done the math to see how many bottles it will hold while leaving an isleway? Its a big expense to find you've outgrown it before its complete.
Im jealous. I have a half finished addition with a full basement that I cant complete yet.

 

[Sammyk]

Dave we will just use it for bottled wine. We have 2 of the wine racks from Sam's Club that holds 168 bottles each and we figured we could get 4 and possibly 5 of those racks inside. A bit crowded perhaps but we think we would only be accessing it once a week to take down bottles and bring up more and put in the fridge for the following week.

There is a rung ladder that sits inside up against the edge but we are thinking of adding steps like that are used for pull down attic. In the event of a tornado those steps would not work for getting an 85 lb dog down there. Or steps that can be taken out and stored outside the shelter.

Mostly I was wondering if you thought the cement info I provided would work.
It is pricey for sure but it is considered a home improvement that would increase our home value too because we do not have any where to go during a tornado.

 

[Sammyk]

Wine cellar from a storage container

We found this on line with step by step instructions on how to build a complete wine cellar from a large 40' storage container.

Here is a link to the photos and if you scroll down to near the bottom there is a video on how to build it step by step.
http://www.supercubes.com/blog/category/storm-shelter/

40' wine making room with storage cost $12,500!

Not in our budget but interesting in how this finished wine cellar is made.

We did look into a septic tank and can get a 3300 gallon tank for $1900 delivered and installed. Dimensions are 6.5' wide 7.5' tall and 12.5' long.

Should we go that route we would finish it off as per the video above,

 

[grapeman]

I would not go with the septic tank idea. One that size would have 2 compartments in it so that divider would need to be busted out and could affect the integrity of the unit. It would also have knockouts for pipes and not have the proper access port for you to gain access easily. The price you got for the finished delivered unit is actually quite good. I bet the builder will come in 2 to 3 times that amount........................

 

[Sammyk]

We did talk to the septic tank company and he said it not that hard to take out the divider with the right tool. And we are think that just taking out part of it, enough to allow one to walk through would give extra wall space for additional wine racks.

Still waiting on the contractor who now has the flu or some virus.....

 

[jswordy]

Hmmm - you are going to fill up the storm shelter you posted pretty quick by the time you get your shelving and such in there. The septic tank sounds like a great option with modifications.

Soooo...some things to ask about and ponder...

1.) Can the storm shelter guy make a "back half" and join the two together onsite?

2.) If not, could you bury TWO storm shelters side by side in the hill, with one serving only for wine storage?

3.) Or, would it save money while the hole is dug to bury the storm shelter right next to the modified septic tank, and use the septic tank as a wine storage room? You can jackhammer out a doorway in the front (side) of the tank, install a door, and have a walk-in.

4.) Or could the septic tank be made in a "doublewide" configuration and then sealed together onsite to make one big room?

The reason you have found many manufacturers out of business is that the huge wave of tornadoes that passed through the south two springs ago exposed many many flaws in shelters people had bought that were not approved by state and federal agencies. Chiefly, the doors, latches and door anchor areas were not near strong enough. So the feds and many states cracked down and a lot of people quit the biz, because it is costly to get your design up to standards and to go through the approval process.

To simply store wine, though, the modified septic tank idea might have merit. For dual use, burying shelter next to septic tank could save you some real money, since the shelter could be smaller now to fit 2-4 people and the septic tank is cheaper by the square foot for wine only use.

You'll still have to factor in your ventilation costs, drainage and your sealing and insulation costs, but I'll bet either option will come in much cheaper than a scratch-built unit. I definitely would consider an exterior sealant coating and using rigid foam all around anyplace the earth contacts the unit(s). It will help keep them dry and keep humidity down inside.

Also, look at this cheapo solution for kicks! [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93NsPdsMBms[/ame]

Or this one...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA0Sp5IjLjk[/ame]

 

[jimmyjames23]

I own a contracting company. Look into ICF. Insulated concrete forming may offer you a solution. It works especially well with an exterior wrap of Delta MS tied into a weeping tile. You will probably need a sump pit depending on your depth and grade elevation.

 

[REDBOATNY]

Starting to sound like a Doomsday preppers episode. Lol. I wouldn't put the "septic tank wine" on the label.

 

[jimmyjames23]

It's not for a septic tank. It's for the collection and diversion of hydrostatic water pressure and exterior weepers.