Wine failing to clear

[Drez]

Recently did a batch of RJs Super Tuscan, was very excited about it. Had some hiccups with an overfull primary but when all was said and done still had a batch I was very excited about.

Stab and allowed to bulk age for about 2 months and then looked at bottling only to find that the wine was far from clear and the heavy sediment was not descending. There was a good layer at the bottom but noticeable floaties in the column.

I went to my local wine shop, picked up some more Kitosol & Chitosan (same as Super Kleer basically) and went about the business of racking again and clearing again.

I tend to go overboard at degass phase and add 50% of the time recommended for stirring and do so with a drill for extra measure to ensure no trapped gas but at rack down I was surprised to find it was fairly gassy. I assumed I made a mistake so I again degassed for a good long while left a few hours and did it again till I got no more gas from it before clearing again.

I waited a week, I was pretty positive as I noted initially a lot of new sediment settling, however another week later I have bands of sediment that still won't fall. I tried another kitosol as some kits Ive seen sandwich Kito-Chito-Kito but to no avail .

As you can see there is quite a bit of sedi for a second rack but Im at a loss what to do next. There is some pretty big stuff floating so Im doubtful just giving it time will work...

Should I bother with another clearing agent? Maybe just mechanically filter next? Any ideas why this might have happened?

 

[MN-winer]

I had the same problem with a few kits I did this winter. I noticed you are in Canada and I suspect that the gas and cold temps are a factor here. Wait for a few of the experts on this forum. Most likely they will suggest you heat up the wine and degas some more. If its clearing in 70F or under then that is likely the issue. I found that adding super klear did not help. Once I heated it up to 75 or more and degassed that did the trick.
Good luck.

 

[Lurker]

I had the same problem with a few kits I did this winter. I noticed you are in Canada and I suspect that the gas and cold temps are a factor here. Wait for a few of the experts on this forum. Most likely they will suggest you heat up the wine and degas some more. If its clearing in 70F or under then that is likely the issue. I found that adding super klear did not help. Once I heated it up to 75 or more and degassed that did the trick.
Good luck.

Agreed, it will degass better at a higher temp. The gas is probably keeping the sediment in suspension.

 

[Tom]

Ditto!
Warm it up and degas. Start degassing SLOWLY!

BTW how many times have you racked?

 

[Tom]

Agreed, it will degass better at a higher temp. The gas is probably keeping the sediment in suspension.

Rich, Like your sig. Now make sure YOU bring those "toys" to the wine club meeting Sunday.

 

[Runningwolf]

I would do some serious degassing as stated by all above. Warm your carboy up with a brew belt first if posssible. You want it up to 75*. Then remove a gallon of wine (this is important to advoid a volcano). Next stir the crap out of it with a dill stir mix. As you get closer to being degassed keep adding the extra wine back in till you have a half gallon left. At this point I would add super Kleere according to instructions. With the half gallon you have left, shake the hell out of it to degas that part (do this several times releasing pressure in jug each time). Now pour this back in your carboy. Let it rest 3-4 weeks for sediment to compact before racking.

 

[robie]

I agree with all of the above. Since it didn't clear to first time, I would suspect gas and low temperature were the problem. Do as Dan suggests, then give it some temperature and time.

If it still doesn't clear in 4 weeks or so, let us know; there are some additional things that can be done. You will not loose your wine!

Question: did you add the bentonite packet during primary fermentation?

Let me add: If I were you, like Dan said, use SuperKlear, not the individual packets you purchased, even though they are supposedly the same... maybe the packets you purchased are bad, so just in case, use SuperKlear.

 

[Gordon]

Fining Tips

1) I've found that I achieve higher levels of clarity at lower temps. 70 F is too warm. Most of the time I'm closer to 60 F.
2) I also fine all my wines in an area that is dampered to vibration. When I used a space in the kitchen the sediment would not settle. Turns out the floor had some bounce in it as many old farm houses do and my 7 year old kept things moving.
3) Also make sure you have degassed thoroughly. My results have improved since I started using a stirrer on my battery operated drill.

 

[wjdonahue]

After this long a period of time, I wouldn't just put it all on gas. The additional gas could have been a stuck fermentation that started again once oxygenated. This would not only account for the cloudiness, but would also account for the gas that you had again and again.
I would rack it off the lees, stir it vigorously and see if any additional gas is produced. If the wine has properly finished fermentation, it should clear over time even without any clearing agents. The banding could also indicate protein haze. Cooling it down about ten degrees with a lessening of the floaties would indicate that at least some of it might be protein.
If it were me personally, I would mechanically filter it during racking with a coarse filter to remove any large particles, then ensure that it is degassed (both with agitation and vacuum,) and then let it rest for a couple of months. If it clears, great. If it doesn't or gas reappears, then it might mean that something is still growing in it, and it might not be something good. Have you tasted it yet for any off flavors that would indicate contamination?

Bill

 

[Drez]

I had the same problem with a few kits I did this winter. I noticed you are in Canada and I suspect that the gas and cold temps are a factor here. Wait for a few of the experts on this forum. Most likely they will suggest you heat up the wine and degas some more. If its clearing in 70F or under then that is likely the issue. I found that adding super klear did not help. Once I heated it up to 75 or more and degassed that did the trick.
Good luck.

You may have the right of it. Foiled by our climate! I hadn't considered that...makes me worry for a couple of my other winter wines.

Ditto!
Warm it up and degas. Start degassing SLOWLY!

BTW how many times have you racked?

Racked from primary to secondary to finish fermentation (discarded lees), then stabalized once I thought fermentation was done, allowed to settle and racked down again discarding the sediment. What you see now is the new sediment from the second clarification with Chitosan and Kitosol. So twice already if count primary to secondary fermentation.

1) I've found that I achieve higher levels of clarity at lower temps. 70 F is too warm. Most of the time I'm closer to 60 F.
2) I also fine all my wines in an area that is dampered to vibration. When I used a space in the kitchen the sediment would not settle. Turns out the floor had some bounce in it as many old farm houses do and my 7 year old kept things moving.
3) Also make sure you have degassed thoroughly. My results have improved since I started using a stirrer on my battery operated drill.

I don't have a good way to cool things down now that were into summer (outside of waiting till winter again). I live it a part of the world with a pretty big temp differences (35C/95F in summer, -30C/-22F Winter) and its gonna be warm for a while now.

I can't imagine things having being too warm to clear though, the carboy was cellared in my basement on a stone floor over winter/spring and I suspect that was a consistant ~18C/65F.

Like you I always use a drill strring rod and degass beyond recommendations so Im not sure it was just a matter of not degassing enough, even if it was I've already degassed a second time and the problem is essentially the same so its doubtful this alone is the casue, there must be a reason for the trapped gas (temprature, halted fermentation etc.)

After this long a period of time, I wouldn't just put it all on gas. The additional gas could have been a stuck fermentation that started again once oxygenated. This would not only account for the cloudiness, but would also account for the gas that you had again and again.
I would rack it off the lees, stir it vigorously and see if any additional gas is produced. If the wine has properly finished fermentation, it should clear over time even without any clearing agents. The banding could also indicate protein haze. Cooling it down about ten degrees with a lessening of the floaties would indicate that at least some of it might be protein.
If it were me personally, I would mechanically filter it during racking with a coarse filter to remove any large particles, then ensure that it is degassed (both with agitation and vacuum,) and then let it rest for a couple of months. If it clears, great. If it doesn't or gas reappears, then it might mean that something is still growing in it, and it might not be something good. Have you tasted it yet for any off flavors that would indicate contamination?

Bill

I think your on to something here. I wondered if it was possible that I had a halted fermentation and it started to ferment again, either due to low temprature and slow fermentation or because I made an error in measuring Brix due to sugars that may not be in solution (ie Crushed grape) or the addition of top off.

I tasted it before the last clearing and I wasn't impressed. It tasted young, hot and bit gassy yet I can't say it was off either.

So few options here. First step I guess will be to rack it down again get rid of the new sediment I have. Then I'll try to warm it up to about 25C/75F and then agitate it to get rid of any new gas. At this time I'll taste it and consider next step. If its protein haze would the use of an enzymes for clearing be advised?

 

[wjdonahue]

They might help, but it is really iffy. Once a protein haze is there, it is awfully hard to get rid of. Not as much of a problem with whites if it stays, since you chill them before drinking, but with reds...really a problem. I had trouble a couple of years ago with some Norton, and the next year added some pectic enzymes at primary, and had no problem at all, but never did completely clear the previous years. Ended up sterile filtering it to get rid of most of it..but it still tasted great.....just never made it the first bottle opened (laughing) after a couple of blttles, nobody even notice the third one.

 

[Drez]

Time will tell I guess, too bad would have liked to here that enzymes would have been an easy fix but it is what it is Might have to rely on mechanical filtration if degas and time fail me.

Update:
Racked down again. Tasted the wine and its doesn't seem off. Young/hot if anything. With imagination perhaps a touch bitter and dry but a little trapped CO2 might add that...

Anyways warmed it up, degassed and got yet more gas out of it where at cooler temp I could not. So really suspecting temp being the main issue here that it was a touch on the cool side during fermentation, degas and clearing. Perhaps resulted in slowed/halted fermentation as well making the matter worse. Almost certain at least one other batch will have a similar issue, if not as bad.