WineXpert Wine Kit Questions from a Home Brewer

[Bassman]

As the title states I'm a home brewer. I'm confident about sanitation, which I know is key for both wine and beer. I use Star San for brewing and would do the same for winemaking. I have a couple of questions.

I plan on buying a large bucket for primary fermentation, I currently own a 6.5 gal. carboy. Could I use that for secondary fermentation or should I get a 6 gal. carboy? It seems that the winemaking videos I've watched are pretty adamant about reducing headspace.

I've seen that kits are listed as 4 week, 6 week or 8 week. I'm assuming that it's ready to bottle in that time and then you let it age. But what is the difference between the actual kits? I mean, does an 8 week kit have a higher gravity than a 4 week kit? What makes an 8 week kit more expensive than a 4 week kit? I've read that more expensive kits are generally better, and I'm happy to get a better product, but I'd like to understand why it's better.

One of the reasons I want to make wine at home from a kit is to get good quality wine at an affordable price. Since I'm familiar with brewing I felt winemaking was doable. Unlike beer, wine takes longer, especially with aging. Does it make sense to first make a lower cost kit to get some wine going and then get a more expensive kit that needs aging? I don't want to be disappointed by my initial kit. When I'm looking for a budget wine that is "okay" I have tried Black Box Cabernet. It tastes fine but has no character. I'd rather not get the same result from a 4 week kit and just make a kit that needs aging and have some patience.

My taste in wine is generally dry reds with moderate to heavy oaking. Sometimes I like super big wines with a great steak, but generally a nice dry red cab or sangiovese is perfect. I happen to love Coppola's Claret. So my desire to make a dry red may impact the answer about 4 week, 6 week or 8 week kits.

Any advice on kits is appreciated. I tagged this as Winexpert because my local home brew shop can get them and I like to support that shop.

Thanks!

 

[WI_Wino]

My two cents:

- Definitely get a 6 gallon/23 liter carboy. If you want a big red and plan to age for awhile in the carboy you don't want the head space. Alternative would be to fill the remaining volume (1/2 gallon) with a similar wine you buy.

- Generally speaking, an 8 week/more expensive kit will get you more and/or a higher quality concentrate to start with. Also more expensive kits are more likely to add in oak or specialized yeasts. Basically "you get what you pay for". I personally have been fairly satisfied with the cheaper kits and they are ready to drink faster. I do want to try a more expensive kit here shortly to see what I may be missing.

- The kit timelines should regarded as guidelines. Let your hydrometer tell you when it is ready move to the next step. You could bottle at the 4/6/8 week timeframe but in my experience the wine turns out better if you don't rush bottling.

- If you are looking to do a quality kit that is ready sooner, I would recommend doing a white wine kit first. For reasons I'm not 100% sure on white wines are ready to drink sooner than reds. You could do a white first then get a quality red going after.

- Browse through this entire forum. I have been doing kit wines (off and on) for the past 10 years. I have recently found winemakingtalk and have learned a TON.

 

[vernsgal]

Get yourself a 6 gal. carboy
The difference I found in the 4-8 week kits mainly is quality. The 4 week kits you add more water and have less body and flavor. I do buy 4 week kits myself but make adjustments to my tastes.The 4 week kits add more water. The 6-8 week kits usually come with grapeskins/raisons and hold more true to advertised taste and body. I would suggest to buy a cheap cab. and a 6-8 week cab. let them both age and try for yourself. Everyones tastes are different.( I love RJS Cru Select Amarone, body 5 oak 5,aged at 1 year +)it's a mid priced wine that I like. Regardless of price , I find patience and aging will make a big difference. My opinion

 

[TonyP]

As the title states I'm a home brewer. I'm confident about sanitation, which I know is key for both wine and beer. I use Star San for brewing and would do the same for winemaking. I have a couple of questions. Welcome to WMT.

I plan on buying a large bucket for primary fermentation, I currently own a 6.5 gal. carboy. Could I use that for secondary fermentation or should I get a 6 gal. carboy? It seems that the winemaking videos I've watched are pretty adamant about reducing headspace. Avoid head space after the first 5-7 days of fermentation. That's why wine makers go from primary to carboy.

I've seen that kits are listed as 4 week, 6 week or 8 week. I'm assuming that it's ready to bottle in that time and then you let it age. But what is the difference between the actual kits? I mean, does an 8 week kit have a higher gravity than a 4 week kit? What makes an 8 week kit more expensive than a 4 week kit? I've read that more expensive kits are generally better, and I'm happy to get a better product, but I'd like to understand why it's better.As with many things, the better the kit the better the potential results. My suggestion is to start with a 6 week kit and there are plenty out there that can produce great wine. Beer makers think of time in terms of weeks while wine makers think in terms of months or years. Keep in mind that wine is all about patience. Many wine makers age in the carboy before bottling.

One of the reasons I want to make wine at home from a kit is to get good quality wine at an affordable price. Since I'm familiar with brewing I felt winemaking was doable. Unlike beer, wine takes longer, especially with aging. Does it make sense to first make a lower cost kit to get some wine going and then get a more expensive kit that needs aging? I don't want to be disappointed by my initial kit. When I'm looking for a budget wine that is "okay" I have tried Black Box Cabernet. It tastes fine but has no character. I'd rather not get the same result from a 4 week kit and just make a kit that needs aging and have some patience. You probably can have it both ways: good wine fast and great wine slow. However, I'd start off thinking of slow as starting to try my wine after 3 months.

My taste in wine is generally dry reds with moderate to heavy oaking. Sometimes I like super big wines with a great steak, but generally a nice dry red cab or sangiovese is perfect. I happen to love Coppola's Claret. So my desire to make a dry red may impact the answer about 4 week, 6 week or 8 week kits.

Any advice on kits is appreciated. I tagged this as Winexpert because my local home brew shop can get them and I like to support that shop.

Thanks!

I hope this helps.

 

[Dugger]

Yes, you should get a 6 gal carboy, but be aware there are different ones available. The most common now are the Italian ribbed ones but they are closer to 24 litres rather than 23, so top up is an issue. The Mexican smooth ones are preferable but no longer made so check out sources for used ones - they are worth it. There are also Chinese ones on the market but their quality control may be an issue.
The general rule is the bigger the kit the better it is. Kits have both grape juice and grape juice concentrate and the ratios differ in the size of the kits. The smaller 4 week kits have more concentrate as a percentage of the total volume and the larger kits have not only more juice but better quality juice sourced from better grape harvests.
For whites, a smaller kit can deliver a pretty good wine, but the larger kits are better. For instance, if you want a wine that is like a New Zealand Sauvignon blanc, then one of the larger kits is much more likely to deliver.
For red wines, the smaller kits can disappoint if you are looking for a full bodied wine. The larger kits are much, much better. Grapeskins packs are a very definite advantage to getting a good full bodied red. These wines will take longer to mature and you have to be patient with them. Having said that, I believe a young good kit red wine is still much better than a smaller kit at the same age. The good one will get better with age but it still drinks very nicely young.
Cost aside, I would make the best kits and drink them both young and aged. But cost is generally a factor so you have to go with what you can afford.

 

[olusteebus]

You could go cheaper than a 6 week kit. A four to five week kit will save you a little money but I am under the impression that the six week kits are notably better.

I would definitely get a 4 to 6 week kit as my first kit. It will help you learn the basics.

 

[phat]

I'd rather not get the same result from a 4 week kit and just make a kit that needs aging and have some patience.

My taste in wine is generally dry reds with moderate to heavy oaking. Sometimes I like super big wines with a great steak, but generally a nice dry red cab or sangiovese is perfect. I happen to love Coppola's Claret. So my desire to make a dry red may impact the answer about 4 week, 6 week or 8 week kits.

Any advice on kits is appreciated. I tagged this as Winexpert because my local home brew shop can get them and I like to support that shop.

Thanks!

You've had some good advice from others already on carboys and headspace. You definately want to avoid headspace once you get the wine into a secondary - most of us either ensure we top up the carboy with a similar wine (I use cheap stuff for this - it's not that much so it won't matter) Others use sanitized marbles which can be put into the carboy to raise the level of the wine.

If you like Coppola claret - you like big big reds. I like this one too. The trick with this is that it's the hardest thing to get good big reds from a kit. Forget thinking 4 or 6 weeks and start thinking about a year I age all my reds in the carboy for 6 months to a year, and I generally don' t drink much that's less than a year old.

The bigger reds also tend to be the more expensive kits. If you like Coppola Claret, and your LHBS does Wine Expert, You might want to try the Lodi Ranch Cabernet Sauvignon, or if they bring in Cellar Craft (Now owned by vineco too) you might want to try the Red Mountain Cabernet Sauvignon (I've had both, and my taste prefers the Red Mountain, although I do like both - YMMV) Trouble is - you *really* probably will want to bulk age those kits for a year in the carboy before you bottle. (Don't forget, you're probably drinking coppola claret from 2007 or 2008) And these are pricy kits too.. You won't tend to get nice big reds from a cheap kit (unless you get your hands on real wine grapes as well and tweak the kit to death).

 

[Bassman]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll definitely get a 6 gal. carboy and also get a better kit. The WE Lodi or the Red Mountain look good and I'll go with patience over speed!

 

[dillybar]

Bassman, from a fellow beer and wine brewer, welcome.

Based on your stated preferences I would second the recommendation for the WE Lodi Cab. Also as others have said get yourself the 6gal carboy. Follow the kit directions on this first kit. Once you have it bottled and you have reached that 8 week mark open a bottle and give it a taste. It will be green but drinkable. If you find the body and complexity to your liking, put the rest of the bottles away in a dark cool spot and don't touch for at least a year. In the mean time go out and buy another kit and repeat, this time feel free to start making minor tweaks like adding more oak or longer bulk aging.

If after 8 weeks you think that kit wine sucks, then send the rest of the bottles to me for proper disposal and start looking for the Coppola on sale and stock up

 

[azimmer1]

You have received great advice. I too came to winemaking from being a home brewer. As far a star san goes, most wine makers dont use it but use metabisulfate. However, home brewers commonly use star san. I have used star san exclusively for all of my brewing and all of my winemaking with zero issues. I am so comfortable using it I decided to stick with one sanitizer and has never let me down.

 

[Sudz]

Welcome aboard!

I too, migrated from the brew side of things. There is a lot of common ground for these two endeavors. What you've learned in brewing should serve you well.

For me, brewing was, and has been, much easier to excel at. My brews are typically much better than one could buy on the street. Sadly, wine making does challenge me in that I'm still trying to swim with the big fish. Coppola is a big fish in my book! Excellent stuff. Brewing is more of a numbers game, wine making appears to have a great deal of artistry required.

Patience is a quality of which I'm somewhat deficient. And making really good bold reds requires a truck load.

You will find making whites will generate rewards in a few months. Although some of my reds have been "drinkable" (is that a word?) in 6 months, they certainly would not impress. The aging factor should be viewed as an absolute requirement with any big red. It's amazing what that time can do to a bottle, or carboy for that matter.

Many of the lower cost kits can produce an enjoyable wine in 6 months but if you are into wines, you should invest more on the front end and plan on waiting.

As others have said, topping up should not be taken lightly. Actually any exposure to air once fermentation is over should be avoided to the best extent possible. Using similar wine is desirable and, marbles can be effective. I use argon simply because I have access to it and it is simple to manage. Avoid splashing during racking as well. Some oxygen is actually required for aging but most of us will satisfy this by our normal handling during production.

My biggest issue when getting into wine kits was under sulfiting the bottled wine. I had a number of kits crash at about 6 months because of this. I had been adding the customary 1/4 tps at bottling but my kmeta stock was too old which resulted in weak, under dosed, wine. That's really a bummer when you've been happy with the aging progress and holding off for the really good finish only to discover you've made salad dressing...

It's a great hobby and can be a bit addictive. Sit back, take your time and enjoy the ride!