Other Wine making from Juice.

[Rocky]

With the ridiculous price increases that I have seen in grapes and kits, I note that juice buckets have not increased in proportion. I can still get a 6 gallon bucket of juice for around $60-70, here in Oho. Therefore, I plan to concentrate my future wine making in that direction.

This is an easy decision for white wines because in the white wine making process, the grapes are picked, crushed and juiced immediately and normally do not sit on the skins for any appreciable length of time. Therefore, a bucket of juice seems to me like starting at the third step in the process.

This is not always the case in red juice buckets where I have seen a wide variation in quality of the juices. I have made wine from juice from Italy, California and Chile and my experience is that Italy is the most consistent and best quality. I would rate California second and Chile third, mostly because of consistency. I have had Chilean juices that made an outstanding wine one year and the same juice made in inferior wine the next. I know it is a small sample but that has been my experience. The major advantage I see in Chilean juice is that it is available in the Spring (in the States) so I can make wine twice a year.

The issue with red juice is the lack of skins and what I have done is to buy a lug or two of grapes of the same variety, crush them and add them to the must. This raises the price to about $130 for 6 gallons and at one time made it a toss up on whether or not to make a kit. With quality kits over $200 now, it is a much easier decision.

 

[winemaker81]

In 2022, 2023, and 2024 we fermented the pomace from 2 batches with kits (2022) and juice buckets (2023, 2024). The "expended" pomace made a huge improvement in 2022 and 2023, and the expectations for 2024 are high.

Another option is skin packs -- add 1 or 2 skin packs per bucket. In kits, the addition of skin packs dramatically improves the result.

Quality kits and frozen must buckets are expensive. In recent years my per bottle cost for CA grapes has been $6.50 to $7.25 USD, while for VA grapes it's $2.75 to $3.25. Juice buckets are around $3.25. This includes all additives and bottling costs, as I apply labels and capsules, using Nomacorcs.

For me, the $7 cost for the CA grapes is quite acceptable, as most commercial wines I drink are in the $12 to $20 range. I don't make wine because of the cost savings, but it's a nice benefit. That said, juice buckets and locally grown grapes are significantly cheaper than quality kits, frozen must buckets, and shipped grapes.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I think @Rocky is spot on. My 2022 Chilean buckets (3) of reds were all light with little flavor. I’m drinking them just to avoid tapping into my aging supply. I’ve also started glass blending these with store bought, and there is some improvement, albeit at a cost.

Italian juice is by far the best. The juice sometimes seem thick and syrupy.

My latest experiment is with a Brunello juice bucket that sat in the fridge, with skin packs from Label Peelers, for a week to cold macerate. That is how Brunellos are made, so I thought I would try it. This wine has only been racked once so far, but tastes unlike anything I’ve made before. That’s a good thing, no, that’s a GREAT thing.

 

[winemaker81]

I would rate California second and Chile third, mostly because of consistency.

Something to keep in mind is that grapes are a natural product, and growers are at the not-so-tender mercies of Mother Nature. Some years will be better than others.

Regarding South America, I recall reading an interview with the owner of a French winery who invested in South America. His biggest pain was getting the growers to understand that they had to reduce yield to increase quality. To them, cutting bunches was foolish. He had to reject a lot of grapes to get the growers to work with him.

The lesser juices you got may be from growers who didn't get the message, or didn't want to.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Who is the supplier? The Vinters club brings in a semi of buckets in spring and fall. When we used an Ohio supplier (JM) we found that the gravity on California and Chilean buckets decreased to 1.080 +/-, the YAN was high making me wonder if the Ohio supplier added water with DAP. Italian numbers from JM looked like normal grape juice as 1.090 +/- .002. There are skin packs available as noted. JM skin packs were a high percentage moisture as if they were only frozen crushed grape. Whites produced in Ohio were as thin as the reds.

With a supplier located in Canada we have normal gravity numbers as 1.091 but pay a higher price. Ask for test numbers form your supplier.

 

[Rocky]

@Rice_Guy. Madison, can you tell us where you are located and the name of the supplier in Ohio to which you refer? I have purchased juice buckets from two vendors in Ohio; L'Uva Bella in Lowellville, Ohio and Joe Mercurio in Columbus, Ohio. I have purchased Italian, Chilean and California juices. To my best recollection, the SG was never an issue with either supplier. It tended to be slightly lower at times than a kit but I attribute that to the fact that in many cases fermentation had begun in the bucket. For a supplier to "add water" to the juice, they would have to remove the plastic cover which destroys the cover and then replace it. It seems unlikely for two reasons, a. they would need special equipment to add a new cover and, b. what would be the advantage of doings so...to get a quart of juice, maybe?

I believe the issue points to the origin, i.e. the producer of the juice.

 

[Mekpdue]

@Rice_Guy. Madison, can you tell us where you are located and the name of the supplier in Ohio to which you refer? I have purchased juice buckets from two vendors in Ohio; L'Uva Bella in Lowellville, Ohio and Joe Mercurio in Columbus, Ohio. I have purchased Italian, Chilean and California juices. To my best recollection, the SG was never an issue with either supplier. It tended to be slightly lower at times than a kit but I attribute that to the fact that in many cases fermentation had begun in the bucket. For a supplier to "add water" to the juice, they would have to remove the plastic cover which destroys the cover and then replace it. It seems unlikely for two reasons, a. they would need special equipment to add a new cover and, b. what would be the advantage of doings so...to get a quart of juice, maybe?

I believe the issue points to the origin, i.e. the producer of the juice.

I will echo many posts above. I’m in the Kent area and I’ve bought juices from Luva Bella, Grape and Granary, and Label
Peelers. I’ve been buying red Chilean juices which I’m disappointed in as they have all been thin, and ‘flavorless’ for the most part. I always hope, but I haven’t had a quality Malbec yet. Oh, they sure suck up the oak flavors! The Italian reds have been decent but again meh. California juice seems the best so far.

The juices in the buckets usually come in around 1.090 and a ph around 3.8 with one Chianti being 3.4 (2022) and has been a disappointment, but adding grape skins is a 100% improvement to any red juice. Also, as far as any reseller opening a bucket to add water, I’ve always thought the juice came in a ‘tote’ and drained into buckets as needed…water or additives added at that time. And yes, many have started a slow fermentation by the time I brought them home. My favorite white has been the Pinot Grigio from Italy.

California juices seem to be more aromatic, more body ‘thicker juice’ if you will, likely due to later in the year harvesting. Chile and Italian grape juices always seem to me to be picked early, crushed, pressed, and sent overseas early… at least for the small producers like us, while the ‘bigger’ producers bring in the ‘better’ juice on different buy contracts. I could be wrong here, but that’s my thinking.

March/April is around the corner and I’ll have to make a decision on crafting up some South American juice. Oh, I thought I had read somewhere on the site that some grape company in Pittsburgh was bringing in South American grapes. I do not remember their name or if still true, but may look into that. Perhaps a juice blended with some grapes? Or, all grapes.

 

[Cedar Hill]

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Quality kits and frozen must buckets are expensive. In recent years my per bottle cost for CA grapes has been $6.50 to $7.25 USD, while for VA grapes it's $2.75 to $3.25. Juice buckets are around $3.25. This includes all additives and bottling costs, as I apply labels and capsules, using Nomacorcs.

If VA stands for Virginia, would you mind telling me who your supplier is?

Thanks in advance.

 

[winemaker81]

If VA stands for Virginia, would you mind telling me who your supplier is?

Thanks in advance.

Certainly. It's @VinesnBines -- she and her husband have a vineyard in Glade Spring, off I-81 in SW VA.

In 2023 I purchased a test batch (2 carboys result) of Chambourcin, which has turned out very nice. Last fall we went larger with Chambourcin, Chelois, Chardonnel, and Vidal. My activities with these grapes + discussion is documented here. A more detailed account is on my site.

 

[VinesnBines]

If VA stands for Virginia, would you mind telling me who your supplier is?

Thanks in advance.

Cedar Hill, PM me for more information. I have the vineyard in SW Va but I will bring grapes to the Northern Neck of Virginia (King George) for pick up.

 

[Mekpdue]

Oh, I thought I had read somewhere on the site that some grape company in Pittsburgh was bringing in South American grapes.

For those winemakers looking for Chilean Grapes in the Pittsburgh, PA geographical area, I believe I have found the source: https://www.cfpwinemakers.com/ppro0/online?command=PublicProducts.viewCAT&CATG=WING