YAN Calculations

[Ajmassa]

@Ajmassa I'm curious about what your nutrient dosing schedule is. It sounds like you're using GoFerm, Fermaid-K and DAP. How much do you use when?

When 1st figuring this out for myself i noticed that everyone seems to have slightly different protocols. I’ve kept the same routine for the past few years since i started making wines from grapes. It’s based off the morewine guide to red winemaking & advice from the forum.

1. rehydrate yeast with GoFerm
2. 1st nutrient dose at 1st punchdown:
fermK 1g/gal + an extra shot of DAP (around .25-.50g/gal)
3. a few hours later i add my Acti-malo hydrated lactic bacteria & opti-malo nutrient to the must.
4. at 1/3 thru i add my 2nd full dose of fermK 1g/gal

i don’t follow this like gospel though. i’ve skipped the DAP, or the goFerm at times. i’ve added some fermO later. And i’ve butchered that 1/3 timing i admit. But that’s pretty much been my default nutrient protocol comfort zone. The only thing that will change with a known YAN level will be the 1g/gal dosage likely.

*some literature calls for 1 dose of fermK split up in 2 halves. I do 2 full doses as written in that manual and has worked well for me.

Now your turn! What’s your typical nutrient schedule?

 

[dmw_chef]

I always and without fail use go-ferm to rehydrate my yeast. I firmly believe that of all the nutrients, go-ferm is perhaps the most important as it has minerals and sterols the other nutrients don't provide and are necessary for an optimum ferment.

I target 250-350 YAN depending on OG and yeast (or higher, my cranberry mel got 450), satisfied with a mixture of ferm-o, ferm-k, and DAP, following SNA (staggered nutrient additions), divided into 4 equal doses at 24h, 48h, 72h, and the 1/3 break. Bear in mind I'm a meadmaker, not a winemaker (I have made a couple accidental wines when a gallon each of syrah, nebbiolo, and moscato juice started to spontaneously ferment in the fridge); however, when I make no-water melomels (fruit, honey, and no additional water) I still do SNA.

FYI @Ajmassa, your nutrient regime probably adds about 100ppm, counting YAN from go-ferm. Not saying that's good or bad, just supplying information.

 

[CDrew]

I've noticed what the Scott Labs paper says-That a fermaid O suplemented fermentation does not get as hot as the Fermaid K fermentation. But I've used both interchangeably depending on what I have around. In 2020 I tried mostly to use Fermaid O, and dosed 1.5 g/gallon at first punch down, and 1g/gallon at 18 brix. But I think any nutrient protocol is better than none at all. Remember, before 20-30 years ago, plenty of wine was being made and I doubt any of it was being supplemented with anything other than DAP. I feel fortunate we have more options and more science, not that it's perfect. But I do feel that nutrient additions do assure that fermentations go to completion. And since I'm always at the higher end of the brix, its a helpful thing.

For 2021, I'm going to buy a decent quantity of Fermaid O, and use that exclusively. I routinely get fermentations into the mid 80s and want to keep temps in check a bit. During late September and Early October (wine season) temps are often 90F in the day and 60F at night. SO you just have to roll with it.

 

[dmw_chef]

yeah, that's why I do SNA instead of giving huge boluses of nutes tends to keep temps stable even with k/DAP in the mix.

 

[David Violante]

There’s a lot to unpack here!

You can measure the nitrogen content using the formol titration method.

Thank you, I’m going to have to try that. I’ve been better at being able to measure TA but truthfully haven’t done it in the last couple of batches. It’s interesting to see how many people do measure it and how many do not, just relying on pH and taste. Not saying I shouldn’t, there are good reasons to do so. I should get back into the habit.

There are plenty of nutrient suppliers itching to sell you product, in the US you have Scott Lab, Gusmer, BSG, and Enartis to name a few, take your pick. Some information regarding YAN has been changing throughout the years, so you really have to decide what supplier or lab to trust, and use their products based on the current data sheets provided. I've been using Superfood for many years and don't intend on changing any time soon. Reducing the use of DAP is nothing new and has been suggested since the mid 80's as far as I know, probably earlier. The main issue is to not add DAP by itself, as this throws off the organic to inorganic ratio (3to1 typical) which already exists naturally in the must. Unfortunately there are times when the must YAN is so low that supplementing with organic nitrogen alone may not get the job done, so most current information still suggests using DAP combined with a complex nutrient for very nitrogen deficient musts.

I’ve been using GoFerm, Fermaid K & O mostly because that’s what I was exposed to here. I haven’t really looked at others but it’s probably a good idea just to see what’s out there for perspective. I think you’re right though, finding someone you trust and sticking to it is a good idea. It will take some weight off your shoulders and you can just get on with it all. I hadn’t realized the 3:1 ratio. That makes sense now thinking about what happens when you add just one part of the equation.

I've noticed what the Scott Labs paper says-That a fermaid O suplemented fermentation does not get as hot as the Fermaid K fermentation.

My understanding (recent) is that the yeast eat the DAP components like junk food and rapidly proliferate, which both uses and expends energy but which therefore increases temperature. Hence after using DAP in some way the temperature of the must goes up accordingly. To @stickman ’s point, it seems like a balanced nutrient addition is important, and to @dmw_chef ’s point I think it’s probably better to do a step feeding when possible. Especially if the yeast will just nosh down on the DAP, increase in quantity and increase temperature. The video he posted was great at explaining yeast nutrition needs.

@Ajmassa I’m starting to narrow in on a schedule. At least I have a target now, previously I was shooting arrows into the sky, as it were. I use GoFerm because of it’s nutrient, protective, and startup properties. I like the step approach of adding amounts based on yeast strain and starting SG, at 24, 48, and 72 hours, and 1/3 drop. I like using Fermaid K because it has both nutrients and DAP, and Fermaid O towards the end if sluggish. I will most likely use 1G/gallon for wine and 2G/gallon for mead. I also use pectic enzyme to help with maceration and bentonite to give yeast places to bind and do their thing and to help clear later on. I think I read on here that it also helps with some of the aging issues if using enzymes. I haven’t done anything with malolactic fermentation yet, that’s probably next. I do cold soak as long as possible and I want to try saignee next too.

 

[dmw_chef]

A friend of mine posted a video today about calculating nutrition for superfruit meads, there's a lot of good info in here that would likely be applicable to winemaking too:



Keep watching to the end; he wraps up a couple times

 

[Ajmassa]

A friend of mine posted a video today about calculating nutrition for superfruit meads, there's a lot of good info in here that would likely be applicable to winemaking too:



Keep watching to the end; he wraps up a couple times

what is a super fruit mead?

 

[dmw_chef]

what is a super fruit mead?

Honey, fruit, and no additional water.

 

[Rice_Guy]

This is an excellent video for general purpose “rules” on fermenting. Thanks for posting

A friend of mine posted a video today about calculating nutrition for superfruit meads, there's a lot of good info in here that would likely be applicable to winemaking too:

the calculator which the video references:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15VQe9BLk6TkLF5Fod7ghlRLIaRJJ07kQbPPMygu5Tyk/edit#gid=0

 

[David Violante]

Apologies about the silence, it has been ridiculous at work with COVID. I’m finally sitting down with a cup of coffee and reading through the posts and catching up.

@dmw_chef thank you for the video, it is super helpful. I tried using the online calculator, and it seems to work online but when I downloaded a copy the syntax of the cell calculations didn’t transfer. Ex: instead of (x-y) the formula says (x minus y). For some calculations I could figure it out, but for some I couldn’t. I emailed the author and he related he wasn’t really good at excel. Any suggestions?

 

[dmw_chef]

are you using it in google sheets?

tryjng to use it in excel is probably a bad idea.

 

[David Violante]

Works completely fine in google sheets. I thought I saw thst he wanted us to download a copy. I only have google sheets on my iPad. Was using excel on my desktop to try and use it.

 

[dmw_chef]

Works completely fine in google sheets. I thought I saw thst he wanted us to download a copy. I only have google sheets on my iPad. Was using excel on my desktop to try and use it.

Just make a copy using your google account

 

[sour_grapes]

I will admit that I was surprised to see how incompatible the functions of google sheets and excel are.

 

[cmason1957]

I have sometimes had good luck with Libre office and Google spreadsheets, but not always. And then you can sometimes take it from Libre office to excel. I'll see if I can get this to work tomorrow.

 

[cmason1957]

I did try and Libre Office was quite happy with the spreadsheet, but wouldn't convert it into something that Excel was happy with. It can probably be done, but it will involve hand conversion.

 

[David Violante]

Thank you for trying... looks like it’s by hand then...

 

[wekv]

You can measure the nitrogen content using the formol titration method. (Note that this is the same as the Vinmetrica test kits but doesn't run you $32 a pop.) If you have sufficient lab equipment and skills to measure TA, you can also measure nitrogen. This does require the use of formaldehyde which is nasty. I was able to buy it off Amazon though, go figure. It is the only item in my lab space labeled as flammable + poisonous (due to methanol) as well as carcinogenic.

Procedure here:
1) Titrate your 5ml wine sample to pH of 8.2
2) Titrate the formaldehyde you'll use to pH of 8.2 in a separate beaker
3) Add 2ml of the titrated formaldehyde to your wine sample
4) Measure initial volume of 0.01 N NaOH on your buret
5) Titrate to pH of 8.2 and measure final volume on buret
6) N (mg/L aka ppm) = (Vol of NaOH) * (Normality of NaOH) * 14 * 1000 / 5
This simplifies to N (mg/L) = (Vol of NaOH) * 28 if you are using 0.01N NaOH and a 5ml sample of wine.

One caveat, this measures all the Nitrogen not only the YAN, so it tends to over report the actual yeast-usable nitrogen content by upwards of 10%.

Hey JG & all - I'm new here (been making wine from home grown grapes for ~7 years now.) I'm trying to up the ante every year and get more self-reliant on testing (w/o all the gizmos) this year in lieu of spending $60+ per panel of testing on each sample at the "local" university extension. I do like to know the YAN and have a keen interest in chemistry (loved it in college) and still remember a lot.

Looking at the above test (which is great to know) I see you make use of 0.01N NaOH in the lower half of the protocol. What is the Normality of NaOH that you use to titrate out the 5ml sample (line 1) and Formalin (line 2)?? I would think that matters since a greater titrant normality or concentration, say 0.2N, would not dilute the titrand (sample & Formalin) as much and affect the chemistry in the 2ml sample (line 3).

Also, I saw this test protocol from Brewing Forward wiki (a similar procedure):

1. Check pH of formaldehyde and if not at pH 8.0 neutralize with 1N NaOH
2. Clarify the wine sample with a 5μm syringe filter or equivalent.
3. Transfer 10.0 mL of the clarified sample into a 25-mL volumetric flask. Bring to volume with deionized water, and mix well.
4. Transfer a 10.0 mL sample of the clarified and diluted wine into a 30-mL beaker, place calibrated pH/reference electrodes and a stirbar into the solution, mix, and adjust the pH of the sample to 8.0 with 1 N sodium hydroxide.
5. Add 2.0 mL of the previously neutralized formaldehyde (pH 8.0) to the aliquot, mix, and titrate back to pH 8.0 with the 0.05 N NaOH.
6. The concentration of fermentable nitrogen is given as follows:

Fermentable Nitrogen (mg N/L) = (mL of 0.05 NaOH titrated) x 175

Notes[1]

• Formaldehyde is carcinogenic and a bronchial irritant, so handle with proper ventilation.
• The pH of formaldehyde gradually shifts downward. Its pH should be checked and readjusted to 8.0 prior to each use.
• The Formol titration only titrates one nitrogen of arginine, it also titrates approximately 14% of the proline present. These two errors are, at least, partially offsetting.

 

[Ajmassa]

Hey JG & all - I'm new here (been making wine from home grown grapes for ~7 years now.) I'm trying to up the ante every year and get more self-reliant on testing (w/o all the gizmos) this year in lieu of spending $60+ per panel of testing on each sample at the "local" university extension. I do like to know the YAN and have a keen interest in chemistry (loved it in college) and still remember a lot.

Looking at the above test (which is great to know) I see you make use of 0.01N NaOH in the lower half of the protocol. What is the Normality of NaOH that you use to titrate out the 5ml sample (line 1) and Formalin (line 2)?? I would think that matters since a greater titrant normality or concentration, say 0.2N, would not dilute the titrand (sample & Formalin) as much and affect the chemistry in the 2ml sample (line 3).

Also, I saw this test protocol from Brewing Forward wiki (a similar procedure):

1. Check pH of formaldehyde and if not at pH 8.0 neutralize with 1N NaOH
2. Clarify the wine sample with a 5μm syringe filter or equivalent.
3. Transfer 10.0 mL of the clarified sample into a 25-mL volumetric flask. Bring to volume with deionized water, and mix well.
4. Transfer a 10.0 mL sample of the clarified and diluted wine into a 30-mL beaker, place calibrated pH/reference electrodes and a stirbar into the solution, mix, and adjust the pH of the sample to 8.0 with 1 N sodium hydroxide.
5. Add 2.0 mL of the previously neutralized formaldehyde (pH 8.0) to the aliquot, mix, and titrate back to pH 8.0 with the 0.05 N NaOH.
6. The concentration of fermentable nitrogen is given as follows:

Fermentable Nitrogen (mg N/L) = (mL of 0.05 NaOH titrated) x 175

Notes[1]

• Formaldehyde is carcinogenic and a bronchial irritant, so handle with proper ventilation.
• The pH of formaldehyde gradually shifts downward. Its pH should be checked and readjusted to 8.0 prior to each use.
• The Formol titration only titrates one nitrogen of arginine, it also titrates approximately 14% of the proline present. These two errors are, at least, partially offsetting.

Even tho it feels like it should be a fairly standard test it seems that overwhelming majority of people don’t test for it and use just a standard nutrient protocol. plus some distributors will even supply YAN levels with their fruit.

so it’s a pretty niche topic and I don’t recall speaking with anyone who ever actually utilized that YaN kit on this site.

you Are in unchartered territory my friend. Godspeed.

 

[Ajmassa]

Hey JG & all - I'm new here (been making wine from home grown grapes for ~7 years now.) I'm trying to up the ante every year and get more self-reliant on testing (w/o all the gizmos) this year in lieu of spending $60+ per panel of testing on each sample at the "local" university extension. I do like to know the YAN and have a keen interest in chemistry (loved it in college) and still remember a lot.

Looking at the above test (which is great to know) I see you make use of 0.01N NaOH in the lower half of the protocol. What is the Normality of NaOH that you use to titrate out the 5ml sample (line 1) and Formalin (line 2)?? I would think that matters since a greater titrant normality or concentration, say 0.2N, would not dilute the titrand (sample & Formalin) as much and affect the chemistry in the 2ml sample (line 3).

Also, I saw this test protocol from Brewing Forward wiki (a similar procedure):

1. Check pH of formaldehyde and if not at pH 8.0 neutralize with 1N NaOH
2. Clarify the wine sample with a 5μm syringe filter or equivalent.
3. Transfer 10.0 mL of the clarified sample into a 25-mL volumetric flask. Bring to volume with deionized water, and mix well.
4. Transfer a 10.0 mL sample of the clarified and diluted wine into a 30-mL beaker, place calibrated pH/reference electrodes and a stirbar into the solution, mix, and adjust the pH of the sample to 8.0 with 1 N sodium hydroxide.
5. Add 2.0 mL of the previously neutralized formaldehyde (pH 8.0) to the aliquot, mix, and titrate back to pH 8.0 with the 0.05 N NaOH.
6. The concentration of fermentable nitrogen is given as follows:

Fermentable Nitrogen (mg N/L) = (mL of 0.05 NaOH titrated) x 175

Notes[1]

• Formaldehyde is carcinogenic and a bronchial irritant, so handle with proper ventilation.
• The pH of formaldehyde gradually shifts downward. Its pH should be checked and readjusted to 8.0 prior to each use.
• The Formol titration only titrates one nitrogen of arginine, it also titrates approximately 14% of the proline present. These two errors are, at least, partially offsetting.

I just went back and looked into the testing process using the reagent kit I will be using. And it’s actually super simple (When sticking with just one set of instructions)

Basically it’s just testing for TA.
Add formaldehyde to the sample.
test again.
Do math.
Get YAN!

Everything using the “TA titrant” from Vinmetrica. It’s .13N. Im pretty sure that’s interchangeable with .1N. But using multiple NaOH’s ? I will avoid that at all costs. .05N .1N, .2N, 1.0N — it all just confuses the hell outta things. So I’m gonna keep the default at .1N (or 0.13N) just to make everything easier

Though Vinmetrica site even on the same page has contradicting info from instructions to video. And also on neutralizing the formaldehyde. Instead of 8.0ph the manual says “looking for ph to be between 6.5 and 8.5ph“ Or to even just go by color change. Idk man.

Below is what I gather to be the most straight forward method. I’m sure when I get around to it there’ll be some learning curve Just like any other lab work.

1. Set up for a typical TA test but using a 10mL wine sample instead of normal 5mL
2. Add another 10mL of distilled water
3. Perform TA test to 8.2ph endpoint. Set sample aside
4. neutralize the formedehyde you’ll be using (2mL/test required) to 8.0ph by adding NaOH one drop at a time. (Only needs a few drops)
5. Add 2mL of neutralized formaldehyde to the already titrated sample and mix
6. Ph will drop and then perform TA test again to 8.2ph endpoint. Note mL used.
7. Take the mL used from the 2nd formaldehyde test * 0.1333 * 1400 = YAN mg/L