Yeasts. Pick one.

[WVRoger]

I am roughly following Jack Keller's recipe for "Old Italian Wine." My daughter has this big unruly grape arbor and after she finished her jelly and juices, she said I could raid the vine for what was left. I think they are Concord grapes. I ended up with about 15 pounds that I'm hoping to get a gallon of wine from. As for the yeast. I only have Bourgovin RC 212 and EC-1118. Which should I use?

 

[hounddawg]

as for me, ec-1118 is a high ABV Yeast.
and i haven't ever made a grape wine, but between the 2 I'd go with RC-212.
but many, many on here can direct you way better than I can.
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Dawg

 

[NorCal]

Hard to miss with 1118.

 

[BPL]

The short answer is, it's your choice. EC1118 is a neutral yeast meaning it does not add to flavor. RC212 is typically used for red wines to provide character and enhance certain qualities. Information for both yeasts can be found in multiple places on line. My guidance 95% of the time comes from the Scott Labs handbook. I suggest searching for it and keeping the information handy. The back story is ANY yeast can be made to "strip" flavors depending on the must fermenting conditions.

 

[wineview]

Over the years I’ve heard that 1118 strips color and flavor. Never did an experiment to confirm. I would use 1118 for a white and RC 212 for a red.

 

[winemaker81]

Over the years I’ve heard that 1118 strips color and flavor. Never did an experiment to confirm. I would use 1118 for a white and RC 212 for a red.

I've heard that opinion as well. I suspect that EC-1118 does neither; rather, that it brings nothing special to the table other than being able to ferment a rock. Other strains bring other qualities to the table.

 

[WVRoger]

I had originally set out to go for a high alcohol ferment so laid out the EC1118. I only took the starting gravity up to 1.095 so I should have been ok with the RC212. If I make this wine again, I'll use that to see if I can tell a difference.

I'm pretty sure the 15 lbs. is not going to yield a full gallon.

 

[hounddawg]

I've made a gallon or two of country wines In my day, once i kept many yeasts.
now i only keep EC-1118, i have very deep colors and at least to me, killer flavors.
now since i do go way up on ABV% , I use way more fruit/berry than most, and when i use www.colomafrozen.com
i reconstitute with less liquid than called for, that way my wines are IMHO very good and very easy to drink.
oop's I do have a few packets of K1V-1116, It is a good second choice, I tend any more to just craft, Apple Blackberry, Elderberry,
Strawberry, Peach, Pear, Skeeter-pee Port, and a few odd's and ends when the mood hits me, but the named ones are mainly what i settled on,
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

I've made a gallon or two of country wines In my day, once i kept many yeasts.
now i only keep EC-1118, i have very deep colors and at least to me, killer flavors.
now since i do go way up on ABV% , I use way more fruit/berry than most, and when i use www.colomafrozen.com
i reconstitute with less liquid than called for, that way my wines are IMHO very good and very easy to drink.
oop's I do have a few packets of K1V-1116, It is a good second choice, I tend any more to just craft, Apple Blackberry, Elderberry,
Strawberry, Peach, Pear, Skeeter-pee Port, and a few odd's and ends when the mood hits me, but the named ones are mainly what i settled on,
Dawg

Are you game for an experiment? Next batch, divide in two. First half, inoculate with EC-1118. Second half, inoculate with any other yeast, and when it quits, inoculate with EC-1118 to finish the ferment.

I expect Batch #2 will be more interesting regarding aroma and/or taste. However, I'm totally cool if you prove me wrong.

 

[wineview]

when it quits, inoculate with EC-1118 to finish the ferment.

What SG do you consider the yeast to have quit?

 

[winemaker81]

What SG do you consider the yeast to have quit?

when the ferment stops. It's situation dependent.

 

[WVRoger]

Are you game for an experiment? Next batch, divide in two. First half, inoculate with EC-1118. Second half, inoculate with any other yeast, and when it quits, inoculate with EC-1118 to finish the ferment.

I expect Batch #2 will be more interesting regarding aroma and/or taste. However, I'm totally cool if you prove me wrong.

You mean, in batch #2, take the OG high enough that the yeast can't handle the alcohol. So, it quits while there is still fermentable sugar. The second inoculation results in obtaining the higher ABV but possibly maintains the character and flavor enhancements imparted by the other yeast. I probably need a question mark in there someplace, but I couldn't figure out where to put it.

 

[hounddawg]

Are you game for an experiment? Next batch, divide in two. First half, inoculate with EC-1118. Second half, inoculate with any other yeast, and when it quits, inoculate with EC-1118 to finish the ferment.

I expect Batch #2 will be more interesting regarding aroma and/or taste. However, I'm totally cool if you prove me wrong.

sadly, beings i have a permanent tracheostomy, my smell is all but imagination, and my taste is impaired ,
two of the reasons i use so much fruit/berry so flavor is very predominate, but stubble variations are beyond me anymore,
but I stay very happy beings I'm above ground. that is why I used to have others taste for their opinion, then started to think maybe they were freeloaders, so, i sold the bottles & the ingredients just in aged FINISHED form, then with unending lines of uppity people. Then i could be sure what i tasted, was as it was. so i keep it simple, very strong flavor and high ABV,
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

You mean, in batch #2, take the OG high enough that the yeast can't handle the alcohol. So, it quits while there is still fermentable sugar. The second inoculation results in obtaining the higher ABV but possibly maintains the character and flavor enhancements imparted by the other yeast. I probably need a question mark in there someplace, but I couldn't figure out where to put it.

I obviously wasn't quite as clear as I thought I was.

Let's assume you have a higher ABV batch. It doesn't need to be super high, e.g., a projected 16% ABV is high is you're using RC-212, which maxes at 14%.

B#1 gets EC-1118. B#2 gets RC-212.

The expectation is that RC-212 will quit around 14%, and when the B#2 ferment stops, inoculate with a fresh EC-1118 starter and let the ferment complete.

One description for RC-212 reads: Ideal for full bodied red wines. Emphasizes fruit and spice notes, accentuates character in red grapes.

B#2 will have gone 90% of the way through fermentation with RC-212. Other than eliminating the remaining sugar, the expectation is EC-1118 will have a minor effect, if any, on the resulting wine -- the characteristics emphasized by RC-212 will be predominant.

My expectation is driven by both research and practical experience: Last fall I used Renaissance Avante and Bravo in red grapes, and the wines are distinctly different.

 

[winemaker81]

What SG do you consider the yeast to have quit?

My last reply was terse -- I was short on time and did a one-liner.

Identifying when Yeast #1 quits depends on the OG and the strain. Last December I started a high-ABV Zin kit, OG 1.114 using RC-212. Projected ABV was 16.2% with the ABV formula I use, 15.5% using an average of the other formulas (I'm re-examining ABV formulas at this time).

The ferment made it down to 1.002 ... which is well below what I expected from RC-212, as I was expecting it to quit around 1.010. After a few days, I decided the ferment was as far as RC-212 would take it, and inoculated with an overnight starter of EC-1118. From there it finished at 0.995.

This is a good example of trusting the lab rated ABV tolerance of a strain only so much. Depending on which ABV formula used, the RC-212 quit somewhere between 14.5% and 15.2%.

 

[hounddawg]

I obviously wasn't quite as clear as I thought I was.

Let's assume you have a higher ABV batch. It doesn't need to be super high, e.g., a projected 16% ABV is high is you're using RC-212, which maxes at 14%.

B#1 gets EC-1118. B#2 gets RC-212.

The expectation is that RC-212 will quit around 14%, and when the B#2 ferment stops, inoculate with a fresh EC-1118 starter and let the ferment complete.

One description for RC-212 reads: Ideal for full bodied red wines. Emphasizes fruit and spice notes, accentuates character in red grapes.

B#2 will have gone 90% of the way through fermentation with RC-212. Other than eliminating the remaining sugar, the expectation is EC-1118 will have a minor effect, if any, on the resulting wine -- the characteristics emphasized by RC-212 will be predominant.

My expectation is driven by both research and practical experience: Last fall I used Renaissance Avante and Bravo in red grapes, and the wines are distinctly different.

ok. i have no palat for traditional wine, and have never made a grape wine, I know yawl with palates , do discern different notes and smells,
I just go simple at trying for my wine to taste as close as off the bush/tree/bramble as possible.. as for rc-212 that was just a guess, I have used nothing but 99% EC-1118 And Around 1% K1V-1116 in years. I settled on my yeast that best suited my ways and types. I no longer experiment as I have found what makes me happy. I do admire the twists and turns others do with wines, like i have said before , i learnt the old ways, then years later joined this forum to get consistent wines year in and year out, and to learn to control my ABV%. At first on here i did experiment with yeasts and flavors, then went back to my roots with a few tools so i could replicate my flavor and ABV%, ...
where and when i learned nothing was used but your head and gut. nuances are not in my tool box. But I do realize what yawl strive for. and respect your ways, I archived happiness with my wines and have never looked back, If i had my way I'd live so far back that sunlight would have to be piped in. lol...
Dawg
me, I'm just a poor dumb country boy, who lives slowly and happily.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

The expectation is that RC-212 will quit around 14%, and when the B#2 ferment stops, inoculate with a fresh EC-1118 starter and let the ferment complete.

The ferment made it down to 1.002 ... which is well below what I expected from RC-212, as I was expecting it to quit around 1.010.

This is a good example of trusting the lab rated ABV tolerance of a strain only so much. Depending on which ABV formula used, the RC-212 quit somewhere between 14.5% and 15.2%.

RC-212 is rated up to 16% - but as the technical notes state, depending on fermentation conditions. As has been frequently noted in this forum, RC-212 does require sufficient YAN to perform well. I assume this need is greater at higher brix/SG/%ABV. Even if you add supplemental nitrogen it can frequently develop reductive aromas during fermentation, though these usually resolve when fermentation is complete.

I'm planning to use RC-212 for my pinot noir this year, and will be adding a generous supplement of Fermaid-O as insurance.

 

[winemaker81]

I have used nothing but 99% EC-1118 And Around 1% K1V-1116 in years. I settled on my yeast that best suited my ways and types.

You raise an important point -- if something is working, why change it?

Me? I'm entertained by learning more about winemaking. Some things, like using multiple yeast strains, are interesting and I try it. Other ideas are interesting, but not enough for me to try.

My winemaking has changed in the last 10 years, as I learn new things that work for me. Other things? Since I haven't found something better, I just keep doing what works.

RC-212 is rated up to 16% - but as the technical notes state, depending on fermentation conditions.

The yeast strain charts I've used state 14% -- I assume they are not up to date, which is a problem trusting with anything on the net.

Assuming that 16% tolerance is correct, it emphasizes the point that we cannot trust the reported ABV tolerance blindly, as mine quit between 14.5% and 15.2%.

It occurred to me, not for the first time, how difficult this is for novice winemakers to understand. Experienced winemakers are typically used to reacting to uncommon situations, so we don't always think about it consciously.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

The yeast strain charts I've used state 14% -- I assume they are not up to date, which is a problem trusting with anything on the net.

I try to go to the source where possible - The Lalvin/Lallemand website has a top level summary as well as the full tech data sheet.

Scott Labs and Morewinemaking.com usually have copies of the tech data sheet too. But you're right, I looked through my (far too numerous) yeast charts from various sources and one of them has RC212 at 14% ABV