Co-inoculation

cmason1957 · Sep 6, 2016

I think this PDF explains BM4x4 and MLF best. This is straight from the manufacturer or the horses mouth, as it were. http://catalogapp.lallemandwine.com/uploads/yeasts/docs/37768f8bf2fb482809424223c65bd5e356790b84.pdf

"Lalvin BM4x4 has elevated nutrient needs and so is not considered MLF friendly. Not recommended for co-inoculation of yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria. Ensure adequate nutrients when used in sequential inoculation."

That seems pretty straight-forward and easy to understand. Co-inoculation is not recommended. If you do sequential inoculation, ie. add the MLB after alcohol fermentation has completed, then be sure to add plenty of MLB nutrients. That is what I have done in the past and it works just fine.

One other thing it talks about is BM4x4 can produce a fair amount of SO2, so be sure to give it plenty of nutritional help. High SO2 means MLF won't work very well.

Tnuscan · Sep 6, 2016

It is probably a good thing they forgot to place my VP41 in my order then. I would have added it to my BM 4x4 if they had.

Siwash · Sep 6, 2016

cmason1957 said:
I think this PDF explains BM4x4 and MLF best. This is straight from the manufacturer or the horses mouth, as it were. http://catalogapp.lallemandwine.com/uploads/yeasts/docs/37768f8bf2fb482809424223c65bd5e356790b84.pdf

"Lalvin BM4x4 has elevated nutrient needs and so is not considered MLF friendly. Not recommended for co-inoculation of yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria. Ensure adequate nutrients when used in sequential inoculation."

That seems pretty straight-forward and easy to understand. Co-inoculation is not recommended. If you do sequential inoculation, ie. add the MLB after alcohol fermentation has completed, then be sure to add plenty of MLB nutrients. That is what I have done in the past and it works just fine.

One other thing it talks about is BM4x4 can produce a fair amount of SO2, so be sure to give it plenty of nutritional help. High SO2 means MLF won't work very well.

I think I will try a less demanding and finicky yeast next time...

Siwash · Sep 6, 2016

Tnuscan said:
It is probably a good thing they forgot to place my VP41 in my order then. I would have added it to my BM 4x4 if they had.

So what would you use in place of VP41?

So would you guys definitely not co-inoculate... what should I do? :ib

cmason1957 · Sep 6, 2016

Siwash said:
So what would you use in place of VP41?

So would you guys definitely not co-inoculate... what should I do?

I would and have done Mlf with BM4x4. I don't think it is that finicky. I would use VP41, without a second thought. I would NOT coinoculate.

Tnuscan · Sep 6, 2016

Siwash said:
So what would you use in place of VP41?

So would you guys definitely not co-inoculate... what should I do?

It's not that VP41 is bad for co-inoculation.

It's just that BM 4x4 is not a good yeast to use with co-inoculation. It might work but you would have to really know what to watch for since BM 4x4 creates a lot of SO2, and is a nutrient hog.

That is one of the nice things about co-inoculation, the need for MLB nutrients aren't necessary. From what I understand.

ceeaton · Sep 6, 2016

I'm going to try a co-inoculation on my Lanza Zinfandel grapes in a few weeks. Was planning on using AMH yeast and CH16 MLB. Will let ya'll know how it goes. If it doesn't work I'll purchases VP41 since that is the most "bullet proof" strain that I know anything about.

Boatboy24 · Sep 6, 2016

Siwash said:
I think I will try a less demanding and finicky yeast next time...

BM4X4 is neither finicky nor demanding. I've used it several times on both kits and fresh grapes and it has performed very well. I haven't co-innoculated, but pitching MLB 24-48 hours after press has worked very well.

Siwash · Sep 6, 2016

Tnuscan said:
It's not that VP41 is bad for co-inoculation.

It's just that BM 4x4 is not a good yeast to use. It might work but you would have to really know what to watch for since BM 4x4 creates a lot of SO2, and is a nutrient hog.

That is one of the nice things about co-inoculation, the need for MLB nutrients aren't necessary. From what I understand.

Not a good yeast? I've read many good things about it... Well, I will try the conventional MLF this time around - or perhaps do some more research before I finalize my plans. I already have purchased the yeast, so I will stick to it...

Will continue to follow this thread with interest.

ceeaton · Sep 6, 2016

Siwash said:
Not a good yeast? I've read many good things about it... Well, I will try the conventional MLF this time around - or perhaps do some more research before I finalize my plans. I already have purchased the yeast, so I will stick to it...

Will continue to follow this thread with interest.

I like the BM4x4 yeast but have never used it on fresh grapes, only on kits which I don't do MLF on. Only ones I've done MLF on so far are CLOS, BDX and D47 ( and soon hopefully AMH ).

stickman · Sep 6, 2016

I think co-inoculation is a good thing, but like everything else in winemaking, you need to be sure all of the parameters are in your favor. Probably the yeast inoculation and nutrients are critical as well as testing for malic completion. You don't want to be having trouble with a sluggish fermentation and have the MLB kick in and finish the malic, and then turn on the remaining sugar, without your knowledge of the status. I think in most cases co-inoculation will go well, but appropriate testing will let you react if something starts to go wrong. I haven't done a co-inoculation yet, and probably won't for a while, but I'm thinking about it.

Tnuscan · Sep 6, 2016

I will do a second run and coinoculate. I split the 300lbs into 3 batches using MT, BM 4x4 and RC212.

I will lightly press the MT batch and the BM 4x4 batch, and just for the experiment.

I will use the BM 4x4 and after 24 hours add the VP41, the VP41 should arrive tomorrow, they are overniting it to me because they forgot to put it in my order.

Johnd · Sep 6, 2016

ceeaton said:
I like the BM4x4 yeast but have never used it on fresh grapes, only on kits which I don't do MLF on. Only ones I've done MLF on so far are CLOS, BDX and D47 ( and soon hopefully AMH ).

I've used it on every grape batch I've done (except whites) and it's done just fine. Standard Fermaid K nutrients in two doses, all went dry without a hitch. It's my current favorite yeast for reds.

Tnuscan · Sep 6, 2016

Siwash said:
Not a good yeast? I've read many good things about it... Well, I will try the conventional MLF this time around - or perhaps do some more research before I finalize my plans. I already have purchased the yeast, so I will stick to it...

Will continue to follow this thread with interest.

I don't mean it is a bad yeast ... It has been shown that it is not recommended for coinoculation.

It is a great yeast in general, I'm using it now and it worked flawlessly. I like it...

Tnuscan · Sep 7, 2016

This is the reply I received after asking about using BM 4x4 and VP41 for co-inoculation:

"Hello David,
You asked about co-inoculation with BM4x4 and VP41. The BM4x4 is not considered one of our MLF friendly yeasts, but you can use it for early addition of VP41 if your initial pH is less than 3.45 and potential alcohol is less than 14%. If your pH is higher than that, I would not recommend co-inoculation.

One other comment is that if you are using the MBR version of VP41, you can inoculate 2 times the normal volume recommended for sequential inoculation as the bacteria will have plenty of time to adapt and grow during alcoholic fermentation. Monitoring the malic acid during fermentation is advised in order to avoid any issues associated with malolactic fermentation completion before dryness is achieved".

Hope this helps.

Johnd · Nov 21, 2016

Tnuscan said:
This is the reply I received after asking about using BM 4x4 and VP41 for co-inoculation:
"Hello David,
You asked about co-inoculation with BM4x4 and VP41. The BM4x4 is not considered one of our MLF friendly yeasts, but you can use it for early addition of VP41 if your initial pH is less than 3.45 and potential alcohol is less than 14%.

I thought it useful to revive this productive discussion of yeasts, MLB, and inoculation timing to see how everybody did with their MLF this year. Please update your progress.

Dave, couple posts up you were going to split up your grapes, use different yeasts and experiment with inoculation timing. Any results to report yet?

Here are my results, remember I started late with frozen must from Fall harvest:

I decided to experiment as well, did two different cabs, a merlot, and a PS, fermented everything with BM 4x4 except the merlot, which got RC 212. Lallzyme EX-V and standard Fermaid K were used.
My calculated wine volume after pressing was 65 gallons, so I used one pack of VP 41, rehydrated with Acti and fed once with Opti, all pitched into the must several days after alcoholic fermentation had begun. All of the pH's were above 3.45, all of my PA% were 14%-15%.
Pressed skins and went to glass 11/7 & 11/8, took my first chromo on 11/20 and found that all of the cabs were finished, the merlot has a barely visible malic spot, and the PS has made progress but isn't quite across the finish line yet. Posted the chromo below for reference.

zadvocate · Nov 21, 2016

That's great and glad it worked. I did a co inoculation but forgot the Opti Mal. So after fermentation it wasn't quite done. I added the Opit Mal and it finished up in a week or two.

Johnd · Nov 21, 2016

zadvocate said:
That's great and glad it worked. I did a co inoculation but forgot the Opti Mal. So after fermentation it wasn't quite done. I added the Opit Mal and it finished up in a week or two.

Which grape varietal, yeast, and MLB did you do this year?

Donz · Nov 21, 2016

I did co-inoculation this year with BM 4x4 and VP41. The result is incredible and very fruit forward at the moment.

MLF took 3 weeks.

ceeaton · Nov 21, 2016

Johnd said:
I thought it useful to revive this productive discussion of yeasts, MLB, and inoculation timing to see how everybody did with their MLF this year. Please update your progress.

I chickened out and did not co-inoculate. Zin with AMH and CH16, Cab Franc with GRE and CH16. Both completed rather quickly (Zin in 10 days, Cab Franc in 3 weeks). Pitched MLB after fully dry and racked off of gross lees. Rehydrated in Acti-ML, no other nutrients than those. Still haven't Kmeta'd yet, guess I should get around to that, duh...

Co-inoculation

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