Co-inoculation

[Tnuscan]

The wine I'm drinking tonight is fruity, I just know co-inoculation was used on this wine. I just know it was.

 

[Masbustelo]

Can any one post a list of yeasts that are incompatible with MLF'S? Or perhaps suggests "good" yeasts that are recommended for co-inoculation.

 

[ceeaton]

http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/ if you are currently in U.S.

http://www.lallemandwine.com/es/argentina/products/catalogue-es/ if you are currently in Venezuela

There is a MLF compatibility column, that's usually what I go by.

 

[heatherd]

I inoculated yeast and mlb at the same time on batches that were a combination of a fresh juice bucket and a lug of grapes. Used VP-41. I pressed by hand.

 

[Masbustelo]

Thanks Ceeaton just what I was looking for.

 

[Siwash]

Thought I'd add to this thread... I am scrambling to figure out what to do this year as I already bought BM 4x4 - a yeast not recommended for conventional MLF... Lavelin recommends co--inoculation...

I haven't done either one!

http://vinestovintages.ca/LaffortHelpfulHints/Co-Inoculation (yeast & bacteria).pdf

 

[Johny99]

Thought I'd add to this thread... I am scrambling to figure out what to do this year as I already bought BM 4x4 - a yeast not recommended for conventional MLF... Lavelin recommends co--inoculation...

I haven't done either one!

http://vinestovintages.ca/LaffortHelpfulHints/Co-Inoculation (yeast & bacteria).pdf

Second time I've seen this comment. I used BM4X4 last year on my cabs with sequential mlf with no issues. Please provide a reference for the not recommended comment. I'm a bit worried as I've decided to do all my reds with it this year and do mlf on them all.

 

[ceeaton]

Second time I've seen this comment. I used BM4X4 last year on my cabs with sequential mlf with no issues. Please provide a reference for the not recommended comment. I'm a bit worried as I've decided to do all my reds with it this year and do mlf on them all.

He probably got it from this link I posted earlier:

http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/

It's the 12th yeast in the list.

 

[Brub58]

If you open up the additional information tab it says 'very recommended' for co-inoculation.

 

[Johny99]

If you open up the additional information tab it says 'very recommended' for co-inoculation.

OK I'm going out on a limb, so please jump in or on me

It says "not really recommended" under mlf compatibility.

It says "very recommended" under suitability for co-inoculation.

The data sheet says "promotes Mlf"

My interpretation: don't do mlf at the same time, sure mix with other yeast, and it will promote mlf after fermentation.

Other thoughts, please

 

[Johnd]

OK I'm going out on a limb, so please jump in or on me

It says "not really recommended" under mlf compatibility.

It says "very recommended" under suitability for co-inoculation.

The data sheet says "promotes Mlf"

My interpretation: don't do mlf at the same time, sure mix with other yeast, and it will promote mlf after fermentation.

Other thoughts, please

That's my interpretation as well.

 

[Tnuscan]

My thoughts are BM 4x4 will start MLf on its own, if left to do so, I believe this is what it was made to do. But it can be co-inoculated, and will play nice with the MLB to completion ,not as well as later(or sequential), like after pressing. I believe this yeast is a mixture of yeasts to bring out fruity aromas that the BM 45 wouldn't do alone.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've only been drinking beer today.

Edit: People have done it, I don't think it is a big problem. I see it as a sports car can do 180mph, but it's not recommended, nor was it designed to do so, but it will.

 

[Johnd]

My thoughts are 4x4 will start MLf on its own, if left to do so, I believe this is what it was made to do. But it can be co-inoculated, and will play nice with the MLB to completion ,not as well as later(or sequential), like after pressing. I believe this yeast is a mixture of yeasts to bring out fruity aromas that the 45 wouldn't do alone.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've only been drinking beer today.

Edit: People have done it, I don't think it is a big problem. I see it as a sports car can do 180mph, but it's not recommended, nor was it designed to do so, but it will.

Yes, you've had too much beer, BM 4x4 will not start MLF on its own. BM4x4 is a yeast, MLF is carried out by bacteria. No bacteria, no MLF. If you have barrels that have bacteria in them, MLF can be started that way, and from other sources, just not a package of yeast.

Hmmmm, new product idea for all of you coinnoculators??????

 

[Tnuscan]

Yes, you've had too much beer, BM 4x4 will not start MLF on its own. BM4x4 is a yeast, MLF is carried out by bacteria. No bacteria, no MLF. If you have barrels that have bacteria in them, MLF can be started that way, and from other sources, just not a package of yeast.

Hmmmm, new product idea for all of you coinnoculators??????

Actually you mis-understood my thinking, which may still be wrong..???

Some areas in the world crush and ferment in cooler weather, so they let the wine sit, then as spring comes the temps start to warm and the MLF starts own its own. Is this not Correct??

If it will start on its own in the spring,[or spontaneous], (I wasn't saying the yeast will start the MLF {it can't because it's yeast and not bacteria} .

What I meant was it may let the MLF start on its own easier than other yeast would.(maybe it was designed with this in mind?)??

AM I wrong on my understanding of this possibility??

 

[Masbustelo]

I've been reading along as this thread developed. My interpretation is that with the BM4x4 you may co-inoculate with Malolactic Bacteria in the ferment, but it is not highly recommended to do so post ferment. It makes no sense that the word co-inoculate is referring to another yeast strain, as the 4x4 is already a blend of yeasts.

 

[Johnd]

Actually you mis-understood my thinking, which may still be wrong..???

Some areas in the world crush and ferment in cooler weather, so they let the wine sit, then as spring comes the temps start to warm and the MLF starts own its own. Is this not Correct?? Yes, that is correct.

If it will start on its own in the spring, (I wasn't saying the yeast will start the MLF {it can't because it's yeast and not bacteria} .

What I meant was it may let the MLF start on its own easier than other yeast would.(maybe it was designed with this in mind?)?? That I do not know for sure, but if the fermentation is over and the wine has been racked a time or two, there's not much yeast in there anyway, right?

AM I wrong on my understanding of this possibility??

You are not wrong, it happens that way sometimes in wineries, maybe always, I don't know for sure, particularly in barrels that have already had MLF's wines in them. I don't have one yet, but will soon. We scrub and clean our fermenters and carboys to rid them of bacteria, and work to introduce MLB to our wines. I do know that I have four wines right now in MLF, that I used BM4x4 on, that are showing little progress as of my last chromo, which was yesterday.

 

[Tnuscan]

I've been reading along as this thread developed. My interpretation is that with the BM4x4 you may co-inoculate with Malolactic Bacteria in the ferment, but it is not highly recommended to do so post ferment. It makes no sense that the word co-inoculate is referring to another yeast strain, as the 4x4 is already a blend of yeasts.

Here is what my BM 4x4 yeast packet reads,

"A yeast blend of BM 45 along with another strain chosen for its stronger fermentation. Allows you to get the unique flavors of jam, rose petals, and cherry liquor with less risk of a stuck fermentation."

 

[Tnuscan]

You are not wrong, it happens that way sometimes in wineries, maybe always, I don't know for sure, particularly in barrels that have already had MLF's wines in them. I don't have one yet, but will soon. We scrub and clean our fermenters and carboys to rid them of bacteria, and work to introduce MLB to our wines. I do know that I have four wines right now in MLF, that I used BM4x4 on, that are showing little progress as of my last chromo, which was yesterday.

I think the bacteria stains are present in the juice, the wine maker hopes that the spontaneous MLF will be from a desirable one that will change his wine naturally. As where the controlled MLF is supplied by the winemaker with a chosen bacteria that is most desired, with no chances of the natural being dominate. And this natural or spontaneous MLF can happen in a glass vessel.

Is this not correct?

 

[Johnd]

I think the bacteria stains are present in the juice, the wine maker hopes that the spontaneous MLF will be from a desirable one that will change his wine naturally. As where the controlled MLF is supplied by the winemaker with a chosen bacteria that is most desired, with no chances of the natural being dominate. And this natural or spontaneous MLF can happen in a glass vessel.

Is this not correct?

Clip from a Winemaker Magazine article is below. I don't know if it's present on the grapes like natural yeasts are. I get my grapes already crushed and frozen, don't know how much of anything survives that.

Promoting MLF
To begin malolactic fermentation, you must add malolactic bacteria to the wine. This can be done in several ways. The simplest and the most successful method is usually to add a commercially prepared malolactic bacteria culture to the wine. Unfortunately this is usually the most expensive method as well costing about $7.00 to $12.00 to inoculate a 5 gallon (19 L) carboy of wine. Using a store bought culture will give you the best chance for success and the quickest fermentation. Be sure to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations exactly to get the best results. You can use less than the recommended dosage, but the fermentation will proceed more slowly.

Malolactic bacteria will remain in the surface of the wood of a used barrel after it has been emptied and cleaned so you can also inoculate with malolactic bacteria by racking the wine into a barrel that has previously stored a wine undergoing MLF. Another technique for winemakers on a budget is to cross inoculate from one wine to another. This is done by taking a little bit of wine from a container that is in the middle of MLF and adding it to another lot of wine. When cross inoculating, add about 5 to 10% of the volume of the wine that you are inoculating. Be sure that the wine that is being added is without defects and right in the middle of MLF. This method can be successful, but carries a greater risk of spoilage.

For the bacteria to perform a successful malolactic fermentation, the conditions in the wine must be conducive to their growth. The bacteria do best in unclarified wine with lots of nutrients, low acid, low alcohol, and no SO2. While they can ferment under more harsh circumstances they often will ferment very slowly and sometimes will not be able to finish MLF.

When to Inoculate
Generally speaking, the earlier that malolactic bacteria get started, the better the chance for success. Most winemakers add their culture immediately after primary fermentation is complete. Some winemakers (myself included) like to add malolactic bacteria midway through primary fermentation or for red wines just after they have been pressed. At this time the juice/wine is usually at its warmest and still has plenty of nutrients. Some winemakers do not like to add the culture during primary fermentation because they feel the malolactic bacteria would compete with the yeast, however recent studies have shown this not to be a concern. If possible it is best to complete MLF before the first winter after harvest. This way you can add a little tartaric acid after MLF if it is needed and then allow your wine to cold stabilize during the winter months.

Preventing MLF
If you decide that your wine would be better without malolactic fermentation, you need to take steps to make sure that it does not take place. Wine cellars have lots of native yeast and bacteria living in them and it is possible for these “wild” bacteria to start a spontaneous fermentation in your wine. The first step to avoid this is to keep a clean cellar and clean cooperage so MLF bacteria do not have a place to grow. Along with this keeping the free sulfur high (>0.5 ppm molecular) and the pH low will keep the malolactic bacteria from growing. For more information on adjusting for molecular SO2, see the two-part WineMaker article “The Science of SO2,” beginning in the August-September 2008 issue.

While the wine is in the cellar, it is easy to control malolactic fermentation by keeping an eye open for the telltale signs of fermentation such as pressure when you remove a bung or stoppers popping out of carboys. If the wine is dry but has not gone through MLF, the gas is most likely from the growth of malolactic bacteria. If this is the case, adjusting the SO2 a little higher on the wine will usually stop the bacteria cold.

Just adding more sulfur is not an option for wine that is already bottled, so you must take extra measures to prevent MLF before bottling takes place. Adding sulfur works well, but free SO2 will slowly decline during bottle aging and if there is any viable malolactic bacteria in the wine it could start to grow when it gets to a low enough level. If you have the resources to do it, sterile filtration works best. If sterile filtration is not an option, bottling with significant SO2, adding 0.04% fumaric acid, and then storing the bottles in a cool place should prevent growth. This may not preserve your wine forever, but if you are making a wine with a fruit-forward flavor profile it is best to drink it while it is young anyway.

MLF Gives You Options
While we have discussed which varieties malolactic fermentation generally works best with, do not feel that you limited to these choices. Feel free to try things differently if you think that it will improve the style of wine that you are trying to make. The key is to understand how it will affect your wine and if you want to do MLF, take the actions necessary for a successful fermentation. If you do not want MLF, do what is needed to prevent it. In either case, always be sure that it is finished before bottling or that you take steps to prevent it from taking place. Ultimately knowing how to work with MLF gives you another tool to control the flavor of your wine.

 

[Tnuscan]

I also think to aid in a spontaneous MLF the pH needs to be high (less acidic) for better results. This is not a desired technique in the States as it is in the European countries.

Like I mentioned earlier If I'm wrong please correct me, I do not wish to mislead.