A Couple Beginner Questions

[justsipn]

"Backsweetening" is adding sugar to a stabilized wine to provide sweetness, but not enable a new fermentation.

When you add sugar to a wine, the yeast will start eating it, producing more alcohol and CO2. "Stabilization" prevents the yeast from doing this. The process:

Let the wine ferment to dryness, where the SG is typically 0.990 to 0.996. As mentioned above, stopping an active fermentation is possible, but it's much more feasible to let it ferment to dryness.

To stabilize, add 1/4 tsp potassium meta-bisulfite (K-meta) per 5 gallons and 1/2 tsp potassium sorbate per 1 gallon. Check the sorbate package in case there is a different recommendation. [I tend to go a bit lighter on sorbate (2 tsp/5 gallons instead of 2.5 tsp) and have had no problems.]

How much sugar? Depends on what you like.

Make a sugar syrup (boil 1 cup water, stir in 2 cups sugar until clear, cool to room temperature). Put 4 oz wine in a large glass and add a bit of syrup, stir, and taste. Keep doing this until you like the result. Keep track of how much sugar was added to the wine, then calculate how much syrup is needed for your entire batch.

I've been doing this long enough that I have a good feel for what I want, based upon the wine. Instead of mixing in a glass, I sweeten the entire batch.

I'll start with 1/4 cup syrup in 5 gallons, stir well, and taste (using a wine thief). I prefer dryer wines in general, so 1/2 to 3/4 cup syrup may be all I add.

If the wine is highly acidic (later harvest white grape), more sugar will be required to balance the acid. And of course, YOUR palate is what matters.

Thank you very much for going through this. I spent a short time this morning googling it and didn't find anything I felt comfortable with. I gave up and thought I have months before I'll be doing it anyway.

 

[BernardSmith]

But remember that a very young wine made using techniques that may have stressed the yeast can be full of all kinds of compounds that will take the yeast weeks perhaps, months to transform into flavors you prefer and the wine may contain many kinds of unpleasant alcohols other than ethanol that may need time to bond with other elements in your wine or evaporate off. In short, a young wine can be like a noisy adolescent whereas a wine that has been allowed to age may be more like a mature adult.

 

[justsipn]

But remember that a very young wine made using techniques that may have stressed the yeast can be full of all kinds of compounds that will take the yeast weeks perhaps, months to transform into flavors you prefer and the wine may contain many kinds of unpleasant alcohols other than ethanol that may need time to bond with other elements in your wine or evaporate off. In short, a young wine can be like a noisy adolescent whereas a wine that has been allowed to age may be more like a mature adult.

I'm hoping this is where my wine is. It has a very distinct sweet flavor which includes your normal wine/alcohol flavor, then it has a completely separate sort of bitter taste. It doesn't taste or smell spoiled at all. I'm hoping that a couple more rankings, more SO2 treatments and time will meld the flavors together and reduce the bitterness side of the flavor. I will then back sweeten it to where we want.

 

[BernardSmith]

But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example.
My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%

 

[justsipn]

But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example.
My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%

I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Yes you can add rhurbarb to the base, the first question is what is your crop like? Ex:
2016 . . . pH 3.31 (Juiced after freezing)
2017 . . . pH 3.32 SpG 1.020
2019 . . . pH 3.27 SpG 1.018 TA 1.38%
rhurbarb‘s pH is good for wine, the sugar is low (this explains LD Carlson adding apple, pear, and grape) and the TA is double what grape wine suggests (which can be “fixed” by back sweetening)

The second question is what style do you want? My style is bold flavor to get blue ribbons. Typical web recipes do 4 or 5 pounds per gallon, I would call that “commercial”, just enough so that you know what it is.
With my style I would use rhurbarb juice to replace the 4 gallons of water, I would have to back sweeten a lot to make a drinkable finished wine. Another way to balance TA would be to chemically remove it with calcium carbonate (but this is advanced)
The just enough style would be taking a high water web recipe for rhurbarb wine and adding it to your LD Carlson along with the normal direction water, ,,,,, you’ll need a big carboy

I just ordered a gallon of rhurbarb fruit wine base. . . . With other fruit

looking at the LD Carlson ingredient list, it reads like a natural food, ,,, ie rhurbarb doesn’t have much nutritional content for yeast so add “natural “ ingredients to make up the deficit. Have played with this style too. Two years back I mixed rhurbarb and peach. The function of the rhurbarb was to provide acid and hide in the background. The function of the peach was to provide aroma and be the name on the bottle label.

Have fun with it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.

The oxalic acid is primarily in the leaves. DO NOT use the leaves! Oxalic acid produces gout and in high concentration is toxic! The stalk is mainly Malic acid with a trace of oxalic acid.

Calcium carbonate can chemically combine with acid and reduce the Titratable acidity which decreases the need for back sweetening.
TA is big time chemistry, are you up for it? ,,,,,, For the purpose of cooking if you can eat it straight the TA is reasonable. Example it is hard to drink vinegar with a TA of 6.0% but straight grapefruit juice with a TA of 1.5% is OK and very enjoyable with a little sugar.

 

[justsipn]

The oxalic acid is primarily in the leaves. DO NOT use the leaves! Oxalic acid produces gout and in high concentration is toxic! The stalk is mainly Malic acid with a trace of oxalic acid.

Calcium carbonate can chemically combine with acid and reduce the Titratable acidity which decreases the need for back sweetening.
TA is big time chemistry, are you up for it? ,,,,,, For the purpose of cooking if you can eat it straight the TA is reasonable. Example it is hard to drink vinegar with a TA of 6.0% but straight grapefruit juice with a TA of 1.5% is OK and very enjoyable with a little sugar.

Now that’s interesting. I knew the leaves were toxic but, didn’t know the exact terms.

Wonder why that recipe mentions it.

I really like science and am enjoying the science part of wine making. However, not sure I’m ready that big of a step.

 

[G259]

Could you explain why you back sweeten if you like your wines dry?
Thanks.

I like my wines dry, but not mouth puckering dry! I should have wrote 'drier', a little sugar goes a long way to promoting the fruitiness of the wine, and I'll not skip that step. Again, I'll say that it is the personal preference point that you have to find.

 

[G259]

. . . BTW, I have tested the SG of an array of commercial wines, and it was interesting. All Woodbridge: Chardonnay - 1.000, Cab. Sav. 1.000, Pinot Gris 1.020, Reisling 1.050, Sav. Blanc 0.950

 

[sour_grapes]

But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example.
My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%

I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.

I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.

 

[hounddawg]

I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.

BAHWAAA YAWLS DRIVING ME TO DRINK lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[G259]

Well, it IS after 5:00!

 

[hounddawg]

Well, it IS after 5:00!

you got me on that, i stand corrected .. man i am slow,,, lol

 

[DizzyIzzy]

"Backsweetening" is adding sugar to a stabilized wine to provide sweetness, but not enable a new fermentation.

When you add sugar to a wine, the yeast will start eating it, producing more alcohol and CO2. "Stabilization" prevents the yeast from doing this. The process:

Let the wine ferment to dryness, where the SG is typically 0.990 to 0.996. As mentioned above, stopping an active fermentation is possible, but it's much more feasible to let it ferment to dryness.

To stabilize, add 1/4 tsp potassium meta-bisulfite (K-meta) per 5 gallons and 1/2 tsp potassium sorbate per 1 gallon. Check the sorbate package in case there is a different recommendation. [I tend to go a bit lighter on sorbate (2 tsp/5 gallons instead of 2.5 tsp) and have had no problems.]

How much sugar? Depends on what you like.

Make a sugar syrup (boil 1 cup water, stir in 2 cups sugar until clear, cool to room temperature). Put 4 oz wine in a large glass and add a bit of syrup, stir, and taste. Keep doing this until you like the result. Keep track of how much sugar was added to the wine, then calculate how much syrup is needed for your entire batch.

I've been doing this long enough that I have a good feel for what I want, based upon the wine. Instead of mixing in a glass, I sweeten the entire batch.

I'll start with 1/4 cup syrup in 5 gallons, stir well, and taste (using a wine thief). I prefer dryer wines in general, so 1/2 to 3/4 cup syrup may be all I add.

If the wine is highly acidic (later harvest white grape), more sugar will be required to balance the acid. And of course, YOUR palate is what matters.

Winemaker 81, Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Your message was specific and educational. I just printed it off and added to my thickening binder of "Winetalk" notes. I so appreciate all of you experienced vinters. There is no better education than experience!!

 

[laxarwolf]

Do you see an improvement in wine when using purified water? Most reverse osmosis water is very low and mineral content also. But I keep thinking about looking up a water profile 4 Columbia Valley and recreating that water profile before I make my next Pinot Noir

I would also use purified water instead of distilled. Distilled water has a lot of minerals taken out. Those key chemical elements are what yeast uses in order to produce wine. Not that you can't use it to make wine just better to use a different type of water.

 

[BernardSmith]

I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.

Absolutely. I stand (or sit) corrected.

 

[Ikeya]

Do you see an improvement in wine when using purified water? Most reverse osmosis water is very low and mineral content also. But I keep thinking about looking up a water profile 4 Columbia Valley and recreating that water profile before I make my next Pinot Noir

I have only used purified. For my first batch I bought distilled and a friend of mine who brews for a local place said it's best not to use it. Then I googled it.

 

[Scooter68]

Think you are right on not using distilled. I use it only for mixing my sanitizer, rising pH meter and making buffer solutions if I need to.

 

[hounddawg]

i figure if for thousands of years naturally good water was used then i'll just do the same, now i don't strive to make traditional wines, just good ole sweet country wines, with good water your body benefits from the minerals in the water, i figure that as long as you have good water then that's that, my style is very laid back non-technical, just calmly slowly easing along, my country hillbilly butt with my sweet country wines,
Dawg