I'd like that, I really need to explore wines from different regions.
Adventures in Wild Fermentation
- Thread starter Cynewulf
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
I'd like that, I really need to explore wines from different regions.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Day 13 update:
Nearly imperceptible changes in SG since last Saturday (Day 7) with my basic hydrometer - seems to be somewhere between .996 and .998. Very gentle punch downs 1x a day just to wet the cap. I thought about placing plastic wrap on top of the cap then decided to let it ride and see what happens. Just a sheet and the Brute lid snapped on. Cellar has stayed about 64-66F. No off tastes or smells. Taste is very fruity with maybe a hint of bitterness on the finish that is slowly fading. I was hoping for a three week maceration but I think I’ll quit while I’m ahead. Maybe next year when I have a CO2 tank. Tomorrow we press!
Nearly imperceptible changes in SG since last Saturday (Day 7) with my basic hydrometer - seems to be somewhere between .996 and .998. Very gentle punch downs 1x a day just to wet the cap. I thought about placing plastic wrap on top of the cap then decided to let it ride and see what happens. Just a sheet and the Brute lid snapped on. Cellar has stayed about 64-66F. No off tastes or smells. Taste is very fruity with maybe a hint of bitterness on the finish that is slowly fading. I was hoping for a three week maceration but I think I’ll quit while I’m ahead. Maybe next year when I have a CO2 tank. Tomorrow we press!
If I remember correctly they found that in 'wild yeast" fermentations the dominant strain ended up being Montrachet, which had established itself over much of California's wine country. I'm pretty sure something similar happened in the Finger Lakes. One year early on I had put in a juice and grape order at Fulkerson's or Fallbright, but near the end of the season I saw they still had some Aurore left (which you probably can't find any more but it was an early-ripening white.) I bought five gallons and brought it home. It was kept at 34 degrees in the tank so very cold. It was 16 Brix so I added a bunch of sugar to it. Normally you would dissolve the sugar in water first, but I was dumb and new at this and just poured the sugar directly into the carboy of juice. The wine had clearly already started fermenting since as soon as I poured in the sugar the entire carboy turned instantly white as a huge amount of CO2 came out of solution at the same time. The wine shot up ten feet from the mouth of the carboy and a huge stream of it splattered off the ceiling! We lost about a half gallon of juice, and I was laughing so hard I couldn't breathe. Some other people were less than happy for some reason though...
Goes to show that some "wild yeasts" can be fermenting a wine at close to freezing, though I think these were the children of cultivated yeats chosen for their ability to ferment white wines at cold temps.
-Aaron
Cynewulf
Senior Member
It was a busy winter with a lot of house projects, but here is the six month update for the curious:
Pressed on October 17 and ended up with about 5 gallons of free run and 4.5 gallons of presse.
I racked the presse about a week later off the gross lees but still haven’t racked the free run as the lees seemed to be much finer and there is no problem with clarity.
In November, I noticed something floating on the top of the free run that I was afraid was candida mycoderma.
After a few days I dribbled 1/8 tsp of K Meta in 1/2 oz of water on the top. Nothing more has grown, but I suspect that it may be what @Ajmassa suggested in another thread on wine flowers: just some of the lees floating to the top. Left everything alone for the most part over the winter then found a steady littlebubbling in all the carboys at the beginning of April suggesting that MLF is taking place spontaneously, though I don’t have the chromatography kit to track it. Tasted for the first time last weekend and everything is very promising, though young with a lot of youthful fruit but no off flavors or anything that concerns me.
About the second run: I had reserved three gallons of Grenache juice from the juice bucket in my refrigerator for the second run and added those back on press day to the pomace along with 3 lbs of Marquette grapes from my vineyard I had been storing in the freezer. The Grenache juice was clearly fermenting in the fridge as the plastic gallon jugs they were in had swollen considerably. Fermentation was cruising for two days but the morning of the third day there was a hideous sulfur smell. I don’t know if I wasn’t punching down frequently enough to get the yeast sufficient oxygen through the low ratio of juice to skins or if adding yeast nutrient would have prevented the H2S. I did punch downs every two hours to aerate the must then decided to press that evening. I racked after two days and the sulfur smell had diminished, though was still very present. This was incredibly discouraging after everything else seemed to be going well, but I’ve left it alone for the past five months with no additional treatments and the good news is that the H2S smell is totally gone and the smell and taste of the wine are great for its age. Hope this helps to calm some nerves in the future if someone encounters the dreaded hydrogen sulfide.
Pressed on October 17 and ended up with about 5 gallons of free run and 4.5 gallons of presse.
I racked the presse about a week later off the gross lees but still haven’t racked the free run as the lees seemed to be much finer and there is no problem with clarity.
In November, I noticed something floating on the top of the free run that I was afraid was candida mycoderma.
After a few days I dribbled 1/8 tsp of K Meta in 1/2 oz of water on the top. Nothing more has grown, but I suspect that it may be what @Ajmassa suggested in another thread on wine flowers: just some of the lees floating to the top. Left everything alone for the most part over the winter then found a steady littlebubbling in all the carboys at the beginning of April suggesting that MLF is taking place spontaneously, though I don’t have the chromatography kit to track it. Tasted for the first time last weekend and everything is very promising, though young with a lot of youthful fruit but no off flavors or anything that concerns me.
About the second run: I had reserved three gallons of Grenache juice from the juice bucket in my refrigerator for the second run and added those back on press day to the pomace along with 3 lbs of Marquette grapes from my vineyard I had been storing in the freezer. The Grenache juice was clearly fermenting in the fridge as the plastic gallon jugs they were in had swollen considerably. Fermentation was cruising for two days but the morning of the third day there was a hideous sulfur smell. I don’t know if I wasn’t punching down frequently enough to get the yeast sufficient oxygen through the low ratio of juice to skins or if adding yeast nutrient would have prevented the H2S. I did punch downs every two hours to aerate the must then decided to press that evening. I racked after two days and the sulfur smell had diminished, though was still very present. This was incredibly discouraging after everything else seemed to be going well, but I’ve left it alone for the past five months with no additional treatments and the good news is that the H2S smell is totally gone and the smell and taste of the wine are great for its age. Hope this helps to calm some nerves in the future if someone encounters the dreaded hydrogen sulfide.
Last edited:
All good to hear, I had an H2S problem with a Viognier that I just let sit and it also went away. BTW, that press looks familiar. Have you given any thought to fall or are just going to rely on your vineyard?
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Thanks again, Fred. Come visit your old press any time you like. The vineyard is waking up and I’m optimistic that I’ll get enough to finally make something of it this year. Still, I’m tempted to pick up some more of that Carignan and maybe Syrah from WW. I’m not sure if I posted this earlier, but I have a strong suspicion that the Grenache they sold me last year was actually Grenache Gris rather than Noir. It was just too pink and I think helps explain some of the lighter color of my wine. I’ve also thought about following up on that local lead on the Blaufrankisch or maybe Horton grapes but don’t know yet. I’m also tempted to order a barrel but would like to better understand what I can expect from my vineyard before deciding on a size so maybe next year. What are your thoughts/plans for fall?
![[Upgraded] 9Pcs Tree Root Growing Box with Drain Holes, Half Transparent Plant Rooting Propagation Ball & Metal Core Twist Ties, for Fast Propagation Plants (Size M)](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514MWQxtWOL._SL500_.jpg)
Your right about the Grenache, mine were grapes but the same thing, too light, my Nebbiolo was extremely light as well. Since there are no spring grapes this I might bump up fall a little but going to try to stick with as much local as possible and hope my Washington State Cab Franc deal doesn't fall through again this year.
Ajmassa
just a guy
awesome detailed update. i need to go back and read this entire thread. 1st time seeing it.
For the record tho— about the surface crud— i have absolutely no science to back up that lees theory. just basing off my own observations.
Either way looks like things are working out well over there. love to see it. saluté
Nice, I brew sour and funky beers with brettanomyces pretty often. Now that I have begun wine making I know that I need to be extra careful to not unintentionally get brett (or the other bacteria I use in sour brewing, mostly lactobacillus and pediococcus) into my wine. But that is not new as I brew lots of clean beer styles as well where I need to avoid that.
But your story reminded me that I was once lucky enough to visit a friend who was then one of the winemakers at Gallo of Sonoma, Gallo's fancy winery in Dry Creek AVA of Sonoma. Earlier that day they had been tasting all the different wines which were in contention to be included in their most premium blend, the Ernest and Julio Gallo Estate Cabernet. They had settled on just 4 component wines and on the %s they'd be adding them in, and I got to try each of the 4, plus the blend. What was fascinating was that one of the 4 was infected with brett. My friend and the other winemakers decided that at the 1 or 2% level that bretted wine added another dimension to the blend. They must have neutered the brett with sorbate and/or filtering before doing their large scale blend and bottling, lest it find more to chew on in the un-bretted majority of the blend.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
This isn’t really what I’m going for, but as one who brews with brett, you may find this interesting: Did Mandy Heldt Donovan just ruin her wine?.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Thanks, Aj! I really appreciate all of the things you’ve documented over the years and I’m happy to give back a little to the community here. And don’t worry, I won’t hold you accountable if I’m wrong about the surface crud. I’m just adding my own observations for posterity that it may not be anything to stress out too much over. But keep an eye on it just the same...
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Quick update: I was able to borrow @mainshipfred ’s chromatography kit on 7/5/21 and it looks like MLF has completed in the 3 carboys I tested.
Still no additions or extra rackings since the first couple of weeks. The wine still tastes fine, no off flavors, though it’s nothing super exciting. It’s much lighter in color and structure than I expected, which I suspect may be due to the Grenache Gris substitution and perhaps the Grenache juice addition; mistakes I wouldn’t make again. It will be interesting to see how it evolves and at different temperatures: my cellar is in the upper 60s right now and I think this will drink better chilled down to 50-55. Still an enjoyable learning experience and one that gives me better confidence for the next time. I have the Allinone bottling kit on order and look forward to bottling this up in a few more weeks.
Still no additions or extra rackings since the first couple of weeks. The wine still tastes fine, no off flavors, though it’s nothing super exciting. It’s much lighter in color and structure than I expected, which I suspect may be due to the Grenache Gris substitution and perhaps the Grenache juice addition; mistakes I wouldn’t make again. It will be interesting to see how it evolves and at different temperatures: my cellar is in the upper 60s right now and I think this will drink better chilled down to 50-55. Still an enjoyable learning experience and one that gives me better confidence for the next time. I have the Allinone bottling kit on order and look forward to bottling this up in a few more weeks.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Wild Fermentation Chapter 2: 2021. My young vineyard ripened enough grapes this year that I’m able to make a bit of wine from it. The hybrids ripen early here in Virginia and I harvested my Itasca on 7/24: 18.75 lbs at 19 Brix and 3.12 pH.
They ought to be a little more gold and I think I should have perhaps waited one more week but with the hot dry weather we were having at the time I was worried about losing too much acid. The grapes and juice tasted great anyhow. I destemmed and crushed everything by hand then immediately pressed 14.75 lbs and got 3.25 liters after a lot of work with the press. I can now sympathize with everyone who has pressed white grapes - what a pain. I put the pressed skins in the freezer and the other 4 lbs of grapes I left to macerate on the skins. The next day the pressed juice was at 1.084 SG and the macerating at 1.094. After two days the pressed juice showed signs of fermentation and the day after the macerating juice kicked off. Gravity descended steadily in both ferments. I pressed the macerating grapes after one week on 7/31 at 1.040 and let it finish in the carboy. Everything was dry by 8/6 and I racked the two together.
We’ll see how it turns out next summer.
I had to harvest my Marquette a little earlier than I wanted as the bees were starting to really go after them. I picked 85 lbs on 7/31.
I left 35 lbs (40%) of whole clusters, crushed and destemmed the remaining 50 lbs, and added the pressed Itasca skins I’d saved. Took readings the next day and got 1.094 SG and pH 3.10. I didn’t do the pied de cuve starter this time and am glad I didn’t as I got a much longer, slower ferment than when I used one last year. Punch downs were a little difficult the first week but much easier the second. Fermentation started spontaneously two days after crush, like the white, and went down slow and steady for two weeks, reaching 0.998 around 8/12. I continued light punch downs just to wet the cap for another week (no plastic wrap or CO2, etc.). It was interesting how the fruitiness would fade in, out, and back in and astringency would do the same thing over the course of the maceration.
Finally pressed on 8/19, three weeks after harvest and crush and got a little over five gallons.
Racked off the gross lees on 8/21. Checked pH and it’s gone all the way up to 3.48, which gives me more hope for MLF in the spring.
We’ll see how things go with it over the next year. It still has some fruit along with some savory notes and it will be interesting to see how it evolves.
They ought to be a little more gold and I think I should have perhaps waited one more week but with the hot dry weather we were having at the time I was worried about losing too much acid. The grapes and juice tasted great anyhow. I destemmed and crushed everything by hand then immediately pressed 14.75 lbs and got 3.25 liters after a lot of work with the press. I can now sympathize with everyone who has pressed white grapes - what a pain. I put the pressed skins in the freezer and the other 4 lbs of grapes I left to macerate on the skins. The next day the pressed juice was at 1.084 SG and the macerating at 1.094. After two days the pressed juice showed signs of fermentation and the day after the macerating juice kicked off. Gravity descended steadily in both ferments. I pressed the macerating grapes after one week on 7/31 at 1.040 and let it finish in the carboy. Everything was dry by 8/6 and I racked the two together.
We’ll see how it turns out next summer.
I had to harvest my Marquette a little earlier than I wanted as the bees were starting to really go after them. I picked 85 lbs on 7/31.
I left 35 lbs (40%) of whole clusters, crushed and destemmed the remaining 50 lbs, and added the pressed Itasca skins I’d saved. Took readings the next day and got 1.094 SG and pH 3.10. I didn’t do the pied de cuve starter this time and am glad I didn’t as I got a much longer, slower ferment than when I used one last year. Punch downs were a little difficult the first week but much easier the second. Fermentation started spontaneously two days after crush, like the white, and went down slow and steady for two weeks, reaching 0.998 around 8/12. I continued light punch downs just to wet the cap for another week (no plastic wrap or CO2, etc.). It was interesting how the fruitiness would fade in, out, and back in and astringency would do the same thing over the course of the maceration.
Finally pressed on 8/19, three weeks after harvest and crush and got a little over five gallons.
Racked off the gross lees on 8/21. Checked pH and it’s gone all the way up to 3.48, which gives me more hope for MLF in the spring.
We’ll see how things go with it over the next year. It still has some fruit along with some savory notes and it will be interesting to see how it evolves.
Last edited:
Pretty successful season so far, how is the Cab Franc coming.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
It’s still going for now - I’m starting to think I may actually get something from them. By this time last year, downy mildew had pretty much taken over and the Cab Franc was defoliated by 8/27/20 so couldn’t ripen further. This year it completed veraison about a week ago and I’m hoping it will hold on for at least another two weeks or more. The crop is smaller than what set last year and I suspect I have about 50-60 lbs. I haven’t tested the chemistry yet since we got about 5-6” of rain this week and everything is going to be off. It’s supposed to be dry this week so should have a better sense of where things are next weekend. I did taste a few of the riper grapes and they were sweet and watery. The seeds were crunchy but still a bit of green in them. I think the vineyards in Virginia tend to harvest Cab Franc in October but I also think they are usually going for a style that is much riper than I am hoping for as I like it a bit lighter.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2019
- Messages
- 538
- Reaction score
- 522
Cab franc usually will come in 1-2 weeks earlier than most other red grapes it’s almost always 14 days earlier than Cabernet Sauvignon, it is grown as a sort of insurance grape in a lot of places because it can survive adverse weather conditions including cold better, try to get it as ripe as possible because Cabernet franc tends to be vegetal and very green if you don’t and can be very off putting if it isn’t ripe but when it is ripe it can be a fantastic grape.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
I’ve heard those things but haven’t yet determined the difference between ripe and overripe. I have a preference for Cabernet Francs from Loire Valley appellations like Chinon or Bourgeil which tend to be lighter and from what I can figure out they usually harvest around 2500 GDD (which we passed two weeks ago) and pH 3.3. I’ve also had an excellent one from Languedoc-Roussillon where I think they harvest at around 3300 GDD. One of the Virginia growers I’ve talked to said they never harvest Cab Franc before pH 4.0 and around 4000 GDD because they’re afraid of green flavors then they add acid back to 3.5 or so and maybe ameliorate. It was good but I’m not really interested in that style. I may just have to take what I can get if downy gets me again, but my goal is to see how things are looking over the next two weeks with a target of brown crunchy seeds, skins a little less bitter, and pH around 3.3-3.4.
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Here are a few pictures of the better looking vines. The clusters are smaller and the shoots more scraggly than last year, but at least it’s looking like I’ll get something.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2019
- Messages
- 538
- Reaction score
- 522
Not bad looking, pretty nice grapes for the vines age which isn’t very old from the thickness of the trunk. What kind of soil are they planted in?
Cynewulf
Senior Member
Thanks, the vines were planted in 2017. I haven’t had it tested but as far as I understand and can tell the soil is clay loam with equal parts clay, silt, and sand.
Last edited:
Similar threads
