WineXpert Anyone know for sure???

[Tnuscan]

So here's a little tidbit to throw in. I was running an MLF paper chromo on my Zinfandel from grapes, it's been going about 10 days. Had an extra space on the paper and decided to run the Stags Leap Merlot, the SLM column. The SLM is 6 months old and just went into the barrel. You can see that it has similar malic acid profile as the Zin. Malic is a stronger than lactic acid contributing to the sour taste in apples. I'm not saying the SLM is sour, but it is a kit. Wonder what the acid profile looks like on others........ I'm going to run some as I keep testing the Zin.

I've always heard: "no MLF on kits, they're balanced", plus there's the sorbate / geranium issue which will ruin a wine. I assumed the malic was somehow dealt with in the kit making stage. It appears not. If the kit juice isn't stabilized by the manufacturer with sorbate (a big if) why couldn't it be MLF'd? Wouldn't it have the same effect on the wine as one from grapes? Rounder, smoother, etc........... Could it be responsible for some sourness? Has anyone ever MLF'd a kit?

Admittedly, tartaric adjustments might be in order post kit MLF, but that's manageable. What say you?

I think this is interesting. Honestly, I haven't thought of testing the acids in this way with these being kit wines. I will try this just for having the information alone.

I have often wondered how they worked around the MLF process, made a wine that could be drank within 60 to 90 days, yet be so close to cheaper ones that have been mlf'ed. I have felt the pasteurization along with the sorbate or finning agents together brought on this sour smell/taste.

Wow! I just realized it might have been a lot cheaper to just pasteurize a homemade fruit wine for my FIRST experiment on trying to find this culprit.

My thought process is running away with me at this moment, you have given me a lot of very important information to analyze. Your understanding is much more advanced than mine.

Double thanks to you @Johnd!!

 

[Johnd]

@Tnuscan,

I don't use sorbate nor fining agents on my dry wines, although I do add bentonite when provided. Most nice kits I do taste funky when green, tart, unbalanced, some dominant flavors. To date, they've all mellowed fairly nicely, though, obviously, some are better than others.

Whenever I do a wine which needs sweetening, IM, fruit wines, I feel like there's a common flavor in the background that I attribute to sorbate, for me, it tends to fade with time and is no real big deal.

I don't know what you're chasing, but I hope you catch it.

 

[Tnuscan]

@Tnuscan,

I don't use sorbate nor fining agents on my dry wines, although I do add bentonite when provided. Most nice kits I do taste funky when green, tart, unbalanced, some dominant flavors. To date, they've all mellowed fairly nicely, though, obviously, some are better than others.

Whenever I do a wine which needs sweetening, IM, fruit wines, I feel like there's a common flavor in the background that I attribute to sorbate, for me, it tends to fade with time and is no real big deal.

I don't know what you're chasing, but I hope you catch it.

Do you notice these "funky" flavors that are in the kits also being in the wines made from juice pails? I will be asking you this latter on, as you progress with your wine from grapes.

After some more study I will split a kit and try MLF on it just to satisfy my curiosity. ::

 

[marathon]

I think this is interesting. Honestly, I haven't thought of testing the acids in this way with these being kit wines. I will try this just for having the information alone.

I have often wondered how they worked around the MLF process, made a wine that could be drank within 60 to 90 days, yet be so close to cheaper ones that have been mlf'ed. I have felt the pasteurization along with the sorbate or finning agents together brought on this sour smell/taste.

Wow! I just realized it might have been a lot cheaper to just pasteurize a homemade fruit wine for my FIRST experiment on trying to find this culprit.

My thought process is running away with me at this moment, you have given me a lot of very important information to analyze. Your understanding is much more advanced than mine.

Double thanks to you @Johnd!!

As you 'may' know, I have been making kit wines again since last year. I 'only ever ' use the oak provided and sodium campden tablets at the end.
I have made a really good Amarone and cheaper barolo and shiraz versions as dry red wines and a home grown dry white.

After 4 months none of the reds are drinkable in the sense that they do not taste remotely like commercial wines. Not sour or off just different in a way that is difficult to describe. In fact I am going to try a commercial Amarone to see what that flavour is like. The white is just perfect. The cheaper ones are oak dominant and all three reds have a particular flavour that my wife described as not remotely fit for purpose yet. I will switch to k-meta and see if there is any difference.
I will also try shop purchased red grape pure merlot juice that has only been squeezed and not pasteurised.
I do wonder how long I will have to age the reds to get a nice flavour

 

[Johnd]

Do you notice these "funky" flavors that are in the kits also being in the wines made from juice pails? I will be asking you this latter on, as you progress with your wine from grapes.

After some more study I will split a kit and try MLF on it just to satisfy my curiosity. ::

I can honestly say that I've never made a wine that didn't have funkiness soon after fermentation, early in its career. Kits with water added, all juice kits, juice buckets, fruit wine, and the Zin from grapes I'm on now included. But I do taste the potential which has yet to be developed. I just think new wine needs time. Hardly ever buy a commercial wine that's not at least 2 years old.

 

[Tnuscan]

As you 'may' know, I have been making kit wines again since last year. I 'only ever ' use the oak provided and sodium campden tablets at the end.
I have made a really good Amarone and cheaper barolo and shiraz versions as dry red wines and a home grown dry white.

After 4 months none of the reds are drinkable in the sense that they do not taste remotely like commercial wines. Not sour or off just different in a way that is difficult to describe. In fact I am going to try a commercial Amarone to see what that flavour is like. The white is just perfect. The cheaper ones are oak dominant and all three reds have a particular flavour that my wife described as not remotely fit for purpose yet. I will switch to k-meta and see if there is any difference.
I will also try shop purchased red grape pure merlot juice that has only been squeezed and not pasteurised.
I do wonder how long I will have to age the reds to get a nice flavour

Hello marathon,

I hope the word sour isn't the wrong description of the smell/taste. It is, however, better than a word I could use.

The way I caught this was by accident, my batch #3, yeast was too old and I did not catch it for a couple of days. I had to repitch it, and was automatically worrying about the extra dead yeast so I added a extra 1/2 tab at racking. Smelling it a little later on I added extra tablet fearing the sulfuric smell was mercaptan. The next time I smelled it, I knew something was wrong, the smell had grown worse than before. That's when I discovered I had the Sodium instead of the Potassium campden tabs.

The packets had price stickers over the front where the information is. I tore the price sticker off from one, and boy was I upset. Some wine making supply stores won't even carry it. Expensive lesson for me to learn. lol

Keep me informed if you notice a difference, hopefully it just isn't me.

 

[Brian55]

After 4 months none of the reds are drinkable in the sense that they do not taste remotely like commercial wines.

When was the last time you sampled a commercial red wine that was only 4 months old? I'm going to guess, probably never. They're typically at least two years old before you find them on store shelves. Wine takes time and patience.

 

[ColemanM]

I do both frozen grape must and kits and can tell you that at 4 months, I'm wishing I could bottle my grape wine and at 2 years, I'm still tasting something odd in the kit. Mayer of fact all the kits taste identical or darn close. I love the idea of mlf on half a batch of a kit. My tasting partner can taste the difference as well, he's the one who brought up oxidation as a culprit. Wish I could get to the bottom of this one too.

 

[Tnuscan]

I do both frozen grape must and kits and can tell you that at 4 months, I'm wishing I could bottle my grape wine and at 2 years, I'm still tasting something odd in the kit. Mayer of fact all the kits taste identical or darn close. I love the idea of mlf on half a batch of a kit. My tasting partner can taste the difference as well, he's the one who brought up oxidation as a culprit. Wish I could get to the bottom of this one too.

Thanks!!!
I had started thinking it was just me. lol. I had stopped making the kits because of this. Around the latter part of last year, after reading many posts on headspace, I started wondering if this, (headspace), could have been my problem. As it turned out it wasn't. As many have mentioned, even when the wine is young, you can tell where it may be heading. So I figured I'd give it another go with a few different experiments, before taking a different route in the fall.

 

[Tnuscan]

As you 'may' know, I have been making kit wines again since last year. I 'only ever ' use the oak provided and sodium campden tablets at the end.
I have made a really good Amarone and cheaper barolo and shiraz versions as dry red wines and a home grown dry white.

After 4 months none of the reds are drinkable in the sense that they do not taste remotely like commercial wines. Not sour or off just different in a way that is difficult to describe. In fact I am going to try a commercial Amarone to see what that flavour is like. The white is just perfect. The cheaper ones are oak dominant and all three reds have a particular flavour that my wife described as not remotely fit for purpose yet. I will switch to k-meta and see if there is any difference.
I will also try shop purchased red grape pure merlot juice that has only been squeezed and not pasteurised.
I do wonder how long I will have to age the reds to get a nice flavour

Sorry, I realized I didn't answer your question on aging reds. Since you said (nice) flavor.

This is my personal opinion, @ 9 months something nice happens to most reds, it's almost magical. And seems to happen again around 12 , after 18 months it's really hard to say, it is usually gone by then.

 

[marathon]

Sorry, I realized I didn't answer your question on aging reds. Since you said (nice) flavor.

This is my personal opinion, @ 9 months something nice happens to most reds, it's almost magical. And seems to happen again around 12 , after 18 months it's really hard to say, it is usually gone by then.

I used to make kit wine in the 70's as a teenager from a company called Southern Vinyards in the UK. The grape source concentrate was of Spanish origin and it made a medium red and a white that was fairly sharp. The only difference was that at the end of fermentation the wine actually tasted and smelled like a commercial wine, what we always called a French 'vin ordinaire' or more commonly french 'plonk'. A UK term for cheap wine, which you could buy by the litre or larger in French shops just across the English channel from my home which was only 22 miles away by cross channel ferry via the port of Dover to Calais. The wine was a cheap everyday wine used by all of France from softening paint brushes to dunking your bread in to eat with lumps of cheese. It was fine! Tastes have improved! But the kit stuff today is completely different. Today the kits I have made so far, are completely different in taste and smell at the end of fermentation. possible wine raisin? base flavour and certainly not watery. Either they are far, far superior and require a long maturation time of at least 1-2 years! Or the process of manufacturing today creates something else. I add nothing to them. I am just not sure what they initially taste of? But I would have expected a basic standard wine smell and taste of the calibre of my old 'plonk'. I note that on the list of ingredients of my Kenwood showcase box it does list sulphur dioxide as a preservative. It may be that the level is extremely high to start with and has a taste and smell effect. I have not got a clue. Except my home grown white wine is normal wine taste and flavour at the end of fermentation. I am most interested in your efforts to identify these differences.

 

[PhilDarby]

So here is MY thought or Conclusion of my tests so far. Do Not use Sodium Metabisulphite in Tablet or powder form. (if sensitive to it) . Instead only use Potassium Metabisulphite K-Meta in powder (bulk package) at 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gal.
And see if you can tell a difference. (I sure can).


The funny flavour is from the Sodium then, under poor conditions, the sodium can react with chlorine in the water as far as im aware to produce table salt.

As most domestic tap water contains chlorine, if you add sodium metabisulph, to sterilise the initial must before fermenting it can produce salt, the chlorine will dissipate a bit if left to stand for a few days, but as you say potasium is better, to use.

 

[Tnuscan]

Merlot Vintners Reserve started last night, was divided into four 1.5 gallon batches.
The bentonite was used in all four as was the oak package. Sg. 1.100 / Spring water @ 5.6pH / Must pH 3.7 / TA .--
Batch 1 Using Lav. EC 1118 with all packets included in kit @ APT. Amounts

Batch 2 Using Lav. EC-1118 and K-meta only.

Batch 3 Using Lav. RC- 212 and K-meta only.

Batch 4 Using R.S. Pasteur Red and K-meta only.

New results!

So, as I posted earlier I won't be using SMS in my wines because of a off taste.

What really shocked me was my new findings. And as I said earlier I wasn't trying to bash or discredit Winexpert.
I quoted my post to show that it was in front of me the whole time. (Every time). I was simply looking over it!
I also would like to state the fact, again, that I'm not trying to hurt or bash any company or group.

"Lalvin Yeast"

Batch 3 had, a little, less of this taste I'm speaking of.

Batch 4 had no taste that I have been speaking of.

I had dropped some of the additives, sorbate, and clearing agents, in which I did notice a small improvement. Which I feel is the sorbate, and can handle it, if needs be.

A couple of members stated that most of their wines tasted off on the start, and I agree,... because the wines are young. Or has Co2, but I knew it wasn't the Co2.

I have also noticed this smell/taste in other kits, with different yeasts by Lalvin, some not as strong. And it is in every wine kit, even after aging 1 year.

LALVIN EC-1118 is almost every kit I have bought, actually I think I can say every kit. This is a great yeast, it goes the extra mile, so to speak. I've noticed @joeswine refer to it as," a workhorse". And it definitely is.

It is not the yeast alone it is the yeast along with these kits.
If it's not because of the process of pasteurization ( which I am testing) it is something else in the way the kits are made. @Johnd brought my attention to malic when he showed the test he had done. It may be what they do to bypass the MLF process. Which will be beyond my understanding to adjust at this time.

This "smell/taste" will probably not affect the majority, all senses are different. I hope those that feel these kits are so similar in smell and taste, do not give up like I almost did this past year. Just try another yeast like red star or one that would enhance what your wanting out of the wine.

I knew my fruit wines did not suffer this "smell/taste", even( when) using EC-1118. The same fruit wines tasted completely different, when using different yeasts by Lalvin. All were delicious and have a wonderful aroma.

Again, this will probably affect just a few. To me it's so strong, I have a hard time understanding why more aren't affected by it.

My testing and experiments on this are not over. I will continue playing around with this at least until fall.

Thanks,

 

[Tnuscan]

I would also like to add I have made a lot of wines using Fruit Bases in can and 1 gallon plastic jugs (containers).

I have used EC-1118, along with other Lalvin yeasts, with these fruit bases and the wines were awesome. NO trace of the smell/taste issue at all.

I am assuming the technique of pasteurization used with these would be the HTST method.

I am satisfied that the problem is not just in my head, or Co2, or any of the additives for stabilization together or by themselves.

Cheers!

 

[hounddawg]

may I ask,,, what kind of water do ya'll use?
where I'm from we have what's called sweet water,
that's ground/well water about 200 to 300 feet deep that runs thru limestone,
of-course my nearest town don't even have traffic lights,
closet town a few miles away around 400 people counting dogs chickens an cats,, lol
dawg::

 

[Tnuscan]

may I ask,,, what kind of water do ya'll use?
where I'm from we have what's called sweet water,
that's ground/well water about 200 to 300 feet deep that runs thru limestone,
of-course my nearest town don't even have traffic lights,
closet town a few miles away around 400 people counting dogs chickens an cats,, lol
dawg::

Yes. I use spring water, I purchase in gallon jugs. I have municipal water running into my home. If I use the tap water, I filter then, I let it sit 24 hours before using.

Cheers!

 

[hounddawg]

I find this thread very interesting, I know city, town and county water systems get a lot of chemicals in them, best of luck to you I too am wondering about your post results ...
dawg::

Yes. I use spring water, I purchase in gallon jugs. I have municipal water running into my home. If I use the tap water, I filter then, I let it sit 24 hours before using.

Cheers!

 

[jgmann67]

may I ask,,, what kind of water do ya'll use?

::

I pick up spring water from the grocery store. I was using my well water, but since we put in the water softener, I'm not keen on the amount of sodium in it.

 

[Tnuscan]

Hello!

Well it's been an interesting couple weeks or so since my last post. I've talked with some very nice, polite people with the wine kit companies and their associates. So far I am the first person to ever call in to them about this issue.

Everyone was concerned and tried to help figure out what was going on, but just couldn't pinpoint my problem. Which isn't good news for me, but is good news that most everyone else doesn't have to worry with this issue.

I hate the fact that I can't enjoy the wine kits (to their fullest) like everyone else can, but such is life.
I do enjoy homemade wines and will start making wine from grapes this fall. Thanks to @JohnT for all of the awesome posts and beautiful pictures he has placed throughout this forum, inspiring me to purchase a press and everything I need to do a fall wine from fresh grapes this year. And Thanks to all the knowledgeable people that share their wisdom and experiences with everyone too.

So... Because no one has any clues, that I have spoken with so far...Here's my theory.

It is the Yeast, that I'm smelling and tasting, but it is not the yeast alone. It is from the process of the production of the kit along with the yeast. The stronger the yeast is, the higher alcohol level tolerance, the stronger the smell/taste. Even so, with the different strains of yeasts I have used. It fades throughout time but still lingers, even a year or so latter.

Until I can get deeper into the manufacturing process of the juice (which I feel is not going to be easy to do) or stumble upon something new this is where I stand at the moment.

Cheers!!!

 

[Mismost]

Hello!

Well it's been an interesting couple weeks or so since my last post. I've talked with some very nice, polite people with the wine kit companies and their associates. So far I am the first person to ever call in to them about this issue.

Everyone was concerned and tried to help figure out what was going on, but just couldn't pinpoint my problem. Which isn't good news for me, but is good news that most everyone else doesn't have to worry with this issue.

I hate the fact that I can't enjoy the wine kits (to their fullest) like everyone else can, but such is life.
I do enjoy homemade wines and will start making wine from grapes this fall. Thanks to @JohnT for all of the awesome posts and beautiful pictures he has placed throughout this forum, inspiring me to purchase a press and everything I need to do a fall wine from fresh grapes this year. And Thanks to all the knowledgeable people that share their wisdom and experiences with everyone too.

So... Because no one has any clues, that I have spoken with so far...Here's my theory.

It is the Yeast, that I'm smelling and tasting, but it is not the yeast alone. It is from the process of the production of the kit along with the yeast. The stronger the yeast is, the higher alcohol level tolerance, the stronger the smell/taste. Even so, with the different strains of yeasts I have used. It fades throughout time but still lingers, even a year or so latter.

Until I can get deeper into the manufacturing process of the juice (which I feel is not going to be easy to do) or stumble upon something new this is where I stand at the moment.

Cheers!!!

Dave...i think if you can smell and taste the yeast, there is yeast in the wine. I would add a lot more carboy time and racking. Kits want you to push through, getter done, and order another kit. My time line is much longer than their time line and I don't get that taste or smell. Just a thought.