WineXpert Anyone know for sure???

[ColemanM]

Not fully degassing your wine will also throw off the taste. That was my problem early on.

 

[TomK-B]

The only thing I know for sure is that since I shifted to making my wines from fresh and frozen grapes or berries I've no longer tasted what you're talking about. I'm convinced that whatever it is, it's in the process of making the kit juice.

 

[globalnavigator]

just checked my notes and...

Tnuscan - I just opened some bottles of RJS Tjungu (only 3 months in the bottle) over the last week on vacation with family - no kit taste for me! Bizarre. Just some more info that may help you on your quest.

Just happened to be reviewing my notes...realized I had forgotten to add the potassium meta to this batch. Now I'm more confused as to whether the omission is why I like this wine?

 

[Tnuscan]

That is the only ingredient you can't do without. Hope it doesn't give you trouble before it's consumed.

 

[Tnuscan]

To update this thread I am waiting to hear from WE, we have reached a communication problem. They are having to use a interpreter to discuss the processes used at several different locations. I think in Europe..?. It is going to be at the very beginning of the process, before it reaches the pasteurization process. That's my belief at this time, hopefully they don't just toss it aside.

 

[marathon]

I am trying long life carton pasteurised pure pressed white grape juice with no preservatives which is essentially just the same as kits but has no additions or tweaking in any way.

I did wonder if fermentation temperatures can become extremely high and be a major factor. I never used a strip temperature gauge before, but have now put one on and I am surprised at how high the fermentation temperature has gone and the effect it could have on a 5 gallon batch, as I understand that the fermentation can increase greatly by itself

 

[Grabo]

Just out of curiosity, since I don't seem to taste the flavor described in my kits, can you taste the off flavor in the juice straight out of the bag, before it is fermented or any other ingredients added? I'm betting the sweetness of the juice will cover it.

Also, after you dump the juice into your primary, have you tried to smell the empty bag?

I'm wondering if you are tasting a flavor imparted by the packaging. If you've ever tasted a can of Coke, a plastic bottle of Coke, and/or a glass of Coke back-to-back you'll notice subtle flavors imparted by the plastic and aluminum.

 

[Tnuscan]

Just out of curiosity, since I don't seem to taste the flavor described in my kits, can you taste the off flavor in the juice straight out of the bag, before it is fermented or any other ingredients added? I'm betting the sweetness of the juice will cover it.

Also, after you dump the juice into your primary, have you tried to smell the empty bag?

I'm wondering if you are tasting a flavor imparted by the packaging. If you've ever tasted a can of Coke, a plastic bottle of Coke, and/or a glass of Coke back-to-back you'll notice subtle flavors imparted by the plastic and aluminum.

Great questions!

Can I taste this flavor in the juice?

No I can't smell or taste this specific issue, from the juice or the empty bag. I have drawn 20ml of the juice, tasted, diluted @ 20,40,60ml dilutions with water with no similarity of the smell/taste that I detect in the Wine.

However I do pick up a very slight, lite burnt or cooked flavor. (very small hint). [taste only]. This has made me wonder if it occurs at the part of the process that they put it under vacuum, so it will boil at a lower temperature.

When I taste the juice from the different kits I can tell they are different varieties of grapes. After fermentation they take on a character that has this smell/taste.

Even a Riesling (or whites) have it too. It takes months for it to weaken, but it remains @ 2 years. I have made and drank hundreds of bottles of kit wines just because of their convenience. It's not that I could't tolerate them, I'm just growing tired of doing so.

I am only talking with WinExpert to share this issue, so if other customers have chosen to dis-continue using their product, they might like to look into it, to increase their sales/customers. Not that they are hurting by any means, but still... they are loosing me, and what if all the others just choose to remain silent... Then again, what if it's just all in my head .LOL

 

[globalnavigator]

That is the only ingredient you can't do without. Hope it doesn't give you trouble before it's consumed.

Actually, I was only referring to the extra that the kit company says to add if I plan on aging more than 6 months.

 

[Spikedlemon]

Dave,

If you make wine from a Juice bucket: do you have the same 'off' flavors?

 

[Tnuscan]

Dave,

If you make wine from a Juice bucket: do you have the same 'off' flavors?

I have not made wine from a juice bucket. I have from grapes, small amounts, and no issue with them.

I've used the All Natural Vintners 1 gallon Fruit wine bases that have been pasteurized, the same way that the Kits are during the last phase of their process. And there is no issue with them.

 

[Spikedlemon]

Just thinking of open variables. The juice wouldn't have been concentrated as the kits but the remainder of the winemaking process would remain the same.

 

[Tnuscan]

Just thinking of open variables. The juice wouldn't have been concentrated as the kits but the remainder of the winemaking process would remain the same.

How Wine Kits Are Made

"Wine kits contain concentrate, juice, and other staples like acid and sulfite. The process that brings these together to make a kit is fascinating.
First, manufacturers contract to purchase grapes from growers specifying conditions at harvest (acid, pH, sugar cotent and color) and organoleptic qualities (flavor and aroma). When the grapes are ripe they are harvested and taken to a winery, where they are sulfited and crushed.
White grapes are pressed and the juice is pumped into a settling tank. Enzymes are added to break down the pectin and gums, which would make clearing difficult after fermentation. Th en bentonite is added to the juice and re-circulated. After several hours the circulation is shut off and the tank is crashed-chilled below freezing. This helps precipitate grape solids, and prevent spoilage. When the tank is settled and the juice almost clear it is roughly filtered, the sulfite is adjusted, and it is either pumped into tankard trucks for shipment to the kit facility or into a vacuum concentrator.
Red grapes are crushed, sulfited and pumped through a chiller to a maceration tank, where special pectinoglycolytic enzymes are added. These break down the cellulose membrane of the grape skins, extracting color, aroma and flavor. The tank is chilled to near freezing to prevent the must from fermenting. After two to three days the red must is pumped off, pressed and settled. The pressed grape skins then undergo secondary processing to extract further skin components, which can then be added back to the juice.
Vacuum concentrators work like the reverse of a pressure cooker. By lowering the pressure inside the tank, water can be made to boil at less than 50 C (120 F). At temperatures this low, browning and caramelization are prevented and water comes off as vapor, leaving behind concentrated grape juice. Because some aromatic compounds can be carried away in this vapor, there is a fractional distillization apparatus on the concentrator to recover these essences, which are returned to the concentrate after processing.
The juices and concentrates are then shipped to the kit facility. They are pumped into nitrogen purged tanks, tested for quality and stability, and held at very low temperatures. This both speeds up the formation of wine diamonds and (crystals of potassium bitartrate from the tartaric acid naturally occurring in the wine) and perserves the liquids.
After the quality controls checks are passed, the juices and concentrates are blended in giant tanks. When the formulation is approved, the must is pumped through the pasteurizer. The pasteurizer is a heat exchanger that rapidly heats and then cools the must, killing yeast and spoilage organisms, but not caramelizing the must. From there it goes into the bag filler, which purges the sterile bags with a double flush of nitrogen and then fills each bag.
The bags are then capped and loaded into the kit boxes, after which the additives are placed on top. The boxes are shrink-wrapped and packed on a skid for a quality-assurance microbiological hold. This hold can last from three days to a week, while the product is examined for bacterial or yeast activity. If it passes, it is shipped to the warehouse, and from there to dealers, and finally, into the hands of the customer."
By Tim Vandergrift
Techniques in Home Wine Making, Daniel Pambianchi

 

[Tnuscan]

@Spikedlemon to my knowledge these kits are still made using this process. I spoke to several at WE that confirmed this, some weren't aware of the Vacuum Concentrators being used, because they are at different locations in the European countries, which speak at least 2 different languages than English. I was told one was in Italy.

I have omitted all ingredients except bentonite and K-Meta. One batch was done using outside bentonite and K-Meta. Issue was still there. I was gong to drop the bentonite and only use K-Meta but they use bentonite in their process at the beginning anyway.

Many items that are purchased in a grocery store like Concentrates, juices and packaged/frozen fruits go thru the pasteurization process using a Pasteurizer that is quickly heated and then cooled. The (HTST) High Temerature Short Time technique I believe.

This is also used on the Fruit bases in the gallon containers etc. I don't believe all Juice Pails go thru this , although most may. I haven't researched to be sure of this because I have never used one. If it's not fresh and frozen I feel it would have to be to keep it from spoiling or fermenting.

 

[Mismost]

I must say I notice the same.
I really think the sour taste is caused by gas even if you think you degassed properly.
It gets worse after it ages for a while.
Open a bottle, poor a glass then shake the bottle and let it rest for a while.
The sour taste will be a lot less (for me at least).

I have a Trinity white that even with a vacuumpump was nearly impossible to degass.
I gave up after an hour.
I just tasted it (bulk aged a month after degassing) and still feel the fizz on my tongue.
I plan on let it bulk age for couple of months so I'm not too worried.

I guess its true what said here, you really need to bulk age for a good result.
Took me only a year and 400 bottles to accept this advice...

I think you are on to something here. I'm just getting to the point (400 bottles...you were pretty close there!) of having wines that are in the bottle for year. Time has helped them A LOT.

Even so, some still have gas. I opened a bottle tonight and took a little taste...sharp & tart. Shook up the bottle and got a POP....still quite a bit of gas. I just let it sit for about an hour. TOTALLY different wine after sitting open.

why is we don't talk much about "letting it Breathe"...sure seems to help.

 

[marathon]

Some interesting elimination points.
Global vintners ( Vineco?) have suggested it may be the 'concentrate component' that is being tasted. Not sure what that is !
I have now eliminated all kit additives as I do not use them apart from K-meta which I have also eliminated as a problem.
I have eliminated chilled fresh pressed grape juice.
I have eliminated fresh pressed pasteurised carton long life grape juice.
I have not eliminated very high fermentation temperatures.
Interestingly I was 'racking' my brains with regard to kit taste and a few ideas formulated. When you look at who owns what in terms of kit producers, it starts to look very interesting. Vineco brands include Winexpert, wine kits, global vintners whilst rs spanals and rjs craft are part of Vincor which is part of Constellation. correct me if you know more. This is important because they are getting the supplies in many cases from factories in Europe. This then brings into play a quality control issue. What grapes are used , who checks processes and so on. Knowing how grapes are branded , sold etc there is room for massive error or production variations. I remember a famous UK wine expert at a tasting of Chilean wine a number of years ago, explaining that at the time you could get a label with a certain grape variety but inside the bottle it could be carmenere, cab sov or merlot or even a blend. Nobody appeared to notice much. Except that Camenere is of course one of the original French Burgundy varieties before phylloxera. It is just that a bunch of Chileans took them back to Chile before the disease struck. So if you want a nice French Burgundy wine you know where to get it from. Chile!
This is important because I suddenly remember drinking Cyprus/ Greek wine at a winery and thinking, Hmmmm! and that is a similar flavour to the kit taste. Now if the grapes come from certain areas, then it may be that the kit has a base of other juice as a percentage. Flavour and process then change.
We now need to find a kit that cannot produce the kit taste, examine it's production and analyse the exact grape varieties. Good luck on that. I tried that with one supermarket and was told that the white pressed carton grape juice changed all the time and was mixed to a consistent taste before pasteurisation. This may be a key factor beyond the control of the kit supply company. They may have to assume that they are given what they wanted, but are they exactly sure all the time as to consistency and quality. I think not. IMO
And that may be why we have a possible reason for kit taste.
Please comment on my thoughts or discard.

 

[Tnuscan]

Ok..... lol. All I can say is I tested this problem, (smell/taste), I have for almost a year. I've spent hundreds of dollars, I've made Kits this way, that way, every way you can think. Spent a lot of time on the phone, until I was not getting anywhere. Even the Colonel wouldn't discuss his recipe but so far.

The only way to know (which I assumed from the start) would be, from being involved in their process from start to finish, until the detection was made.

I made wine from grapes and all I can say is WoW!!! I've had issues with pH, but even at 2 months, there is NO comparisson. So like I said several post back I feel the problem ( for me) is from the " vacuum concentrator". Or maybe the technique used to allow the malic to stay in the mix and not be converted by their process. Because I have drank wines that have not gone thru mlf and it is not in them.

Like the saying goes, "life is to short to drink bad wine". EXCEPT with this issue I have, I'd rather say " Life is to short to drink wines you can't enjoy". I hope I have not made anyone upset, because it was never my intention. Some how my senses pick it up, and I truly am glad that most don't.

 

[marathon]

Hi..... I think I said this on another thread and this is an update. As said before,I finally did get the real answer to this problem through emails with a manufacturer and I will just refresh. All below is 'IMO' , just to cover myself.

You cannot buy a kit that contains what it 'appears' to say on the outside of the box in truth. You cannot buy a real pure varietal juice ( they admitted that point). They use cheap hybrid grape varieties in kits that will produce that distinctive kit 'foxy' candy smell and taste ( concorde?) . It only needs a 5% inclusion I believe to be detected. It is extremely distinctive. They will not tell the percentage of real grape juice in low to high end kits or what else is included. There is a question mark that they may include a percentage of sugar syrup in some form. it could even be that a cheap low end kit may not need to contain much real grape juice.

In other words kits are not the real thing. Unfortunately! But it seems that many people are happy with them.

It appears from my research that there are only two major parent companies of these kits. You can trace who owns what. Most all belong to one parent company
Kits were real grape juice in the 70's and fermented just perfectly...... Kits today?..... If somebody could do an analysis for the amount of hybrid grape juice and what else is stuck in, now that would be very revealing.

I have stopped making kits now.

I have 150+ bottles of kit wine and as my wife says each time I open a bottle. 'That is worse than and not as nice as a very cheap grocery store wine' Actually her words are not printable.

I also make wine from grapes I grow and from fresh cold drinking grape juice or pasteurised juice in cartons. They make a wine that have non of that distinctive peculiar smell or taste. I am repeating myself in the above, but the point is, does anybody know a company that sells kits that only contain a real pure variety and nothing else?

 

[Johnd]

Hi..... I think I said this on another thread and this is an update. As said before,I finally did get the real answer to this problem through emails with a manufacturer and I will just refresh. All below is 'IMO' , just to cover myself.

You cannot buy a kit that contains what it 'appears' to say on the outside of the box in truth. You cannot buy a real pure varietal juice ( they admitted that point). They use cheap hybrid grape varieties in kits that will produce that distinctive kit 'foxy' candy smell and taste ( concorde?) . It only needs a 5% inclusion I believe to be detected. It is extremely distinctive. They will not tell the percentage of real grape juice in low to high end kits or what else is included. There is a question mark that they may include a percentage of sugar syrup in some form. it could even be that a cheap low end kit may not need to contain much real grape juice.

In other words kits are not the real thing. Unfortunately! But it seems that many people are happy with them.

It appears from my research that there are only two major parent companies of these kits. You can trace who owns what. Most all belong to one parent company
Kits were real grape juice in the 70's and fermented just perfectly...... Kits today?..... If somebody could do an analysis for the amount of hybrid grape juice and what else is stuck in, now that would be very revealing.

I have stopped making kits now.

I have 150+ bottles of kit wine and as my wife says each time I open a bottle. 'That is worse than and not as nice as a very cheap grocery store wine' Actually her words are not printable.

I also make wine from grapes I grow and from fresh cold drinking grape juice or pasteurised juice in cartons. They make a wine that have non of that distinctive peculiar smell or taste. I am repeating myself in the above, but the point is, does anybody know a company that sells kits that only contain a real pure variety and nothing else?

I've posted this quite a few times, and I don't work for them, nor can I verify anything other than having made a phone call and had questions answered. Mosti Mondale has several lines that are all juice, never been concentrated, Meglioli and All Juice Masters Editions are two I've made. Purported to be pure varietal juice, never concentrated or reconstituted. FWIW.......

 

[marathon]

Hi
Well thank you very much. That is excellent news. If what you say is correct, then I am in the kit business again. I will contact them myself.

When you made yours, was there any trace of that infamous 'kit taste and smell' after fermentation? It is so distinctive to me that I nearly threw all mine away. I then decided to just let it be in storage and try a bottle once a year. I will of course be dead by the time it is ready!

I had enough home grown grapes for 4 gallons and then I added a gallon of a cheap kit to fill my 5 gallon fermenter. Big mistake. A little of that kit juice goes a very long way in contaminating the real wine. But it can be drunk with either curry or chilli, but then paint stripper is also quite reasonable with those dishes.