Banana water for low pH mixed berry must

[Kev6]

I'm starting a blueberry(11#) blackberry(7#) and muscadine(4.5#) wine. Currently have added 8cups merlot kit concentrate and 1 gallon apple juice. Fruit was frozen and was temp is now 60f. Sg 1.042 pH 3.08. Current volume 6.6gal.
My goal is 11-12% abv. pH 3.4-3.6.
Around 6 gal finished.
Using invert sugar syrup to bring up sg. I've read about banana water have the ability to raise pH as well as improving mouth feel.
Now to the question, how do you make banana water and how much can I use to adjust pH without picking up flavor? Planning on pectin enzyme today and 71B pitching tomorrow.

 

[BigDaveK]

Banana water is made by briefly boiling ripe bananas, letting it cool a bit, then straining. It's something like a lb of bananas to a pint of water. I can't detect banana flavor at 100 ml per gallon but everyone's mouth is different.

Another possibility is potato water. Boil potatoes, save water, make mashed potatoes. The pH is even higher, around 5.5. I don't know if amylase enzyme is needed for the starch but I add a bit just in case.

BTW, potato wine is good!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The process of raising the pH is changing where the salts in the system buffer out. The process depends on which minerals / acids are present so we only know what the end is by trying it as titrating one against the other.
As a very rough guess, if I took a 1:1 banana water with a TA of 0.19% (pH 5.14) an mixed it with Michigan blue berry with a TA of 1.54% (pH 3.11) the effect on the mixture TA would be mainly due to dilution. ie Like adding water. Again a rough guess the pH of 1:1 banana and BB might shift from 3.11 to 3.16. ,,, I can increase the effect if I switch to pink lemonade BB with a TA of 0.60% and pH of 3.97. ,,, We only know by trying.

 

[Kev6]

So, I made a 2cup batch of banana water and it came in at 5.2 pH. If I understand correctly then should I add this to an equal volume of my 3.08 must, the resulting pH would only marginally change. The dilution would not be enough to reach the 3.4 pH goal. Since it is still preferment maybe calcium carbonate is a better option.?

 

[Rice_Guy]

This is where we have several opinions on how to deal with it.
* my style is to run low pH. Yeast slow down at 2.8 so my normal is pH about 3.2+/-. I have lots of fruit therefore I run 100% fruit therefore see high TA as 1.2% therefore the finished gets backsweetened to 1.012 +/-.
*pH above 3.5 increases the risk of infection. Factory wines get sterile filtered therefore it could be done.
* calcium carbonate works, it is slow acting, calcium doesn’t cause flavor issues. Therefore add then wait a few days to see how much you pushed the pH.
* potassium bicarbonate acts fast, you can read pH when mixed for uniformity, an excess causes bitter taste
* TA is a better predator of finished taste. (ex soda can be 2.5 or 3 and folks like it / TA 0.15%). Adding water cuts the TA in a linear function. ex 1 water with 1 must reduces the acid flavor by 50% (how fast saliva washes acid)

Opinion; I blend fruit like peach and rhubarb 1:1 to change pH. I run high TA since I am using stuff out of the freezer,, not buying. I wouldn’t change pH but might change TA.
The work opinion is; the cost of goods looks better by adding water, therefore add water till the customer complains. (most juices have filtered water as number 1 ingredient)

 

[wood1954]

I’m currently fermenting almost the same must. I added 14 grams of potassium bicarbonate and raised the ph from 3.01 to 3.45.

 

[Ohio Bob]

The process of raising the pH is changing where the salts in the system buffer out. The process depends on which minerals / acids are present so we only know what the end is by trying it as titrating one against the other.
As a very rough guess, if I took a 1:1 banana water with a TA of 0.19% (pH 5.14) an mixed it with Michigan blue berry with a TA of 1.54% (pH 3.11) the effect on the mixture TA would be mainly due to dilution. ie Like adding water. Again a rough guess the pH of 1:1 banana and BB might shift from 3.11 to 3.16. ,,, I can increase the effect if I switch to pink lemonade BB with a TA of 0.60% and pH of 3.97. ,,, We only know by trying.

Since you are the expert in this field, here is a question for you. Can you use the Pearson Square method to arrive at the final result?

Or does the chemical interaction make this impossible? Does fortifying a wine with spirits work using the PS because the two components in the mixture are basically similar, and in chemistry terms is just a mixture?