Banana water for low pH mixed berry must

[Kev6]

I'm starting a blueberry(11#) blackberry(7#) and muscadine(4.5#) wine. Currently have added 8cups merlot kit concentrate and 1 gallon apple juice. Fruit was frozen and was temp is now 60f. Sg 1.042 pH 3.08. Current volume 6.6gal.
My goal is 11-12% abv. pH 3.4-3.6.
Around 6 gal finished.
Using invert sugar syrup to bring up sg. I've read about banana water have the ability to raise pH as well as improving mouth feel.
Now to the question, how do you make banana water and how much can I use to adjust pH without picking up flavor? Planning on pectin enzyme today and 71B pitching tomorrow.

 

[BigDaveK]

Banana water is made by briefly boiling ripe bananas, letting it cool a bit, then straining. It's something like a lb of bananas to a pint of water. I can't detect banana flavor at 100 ml per gallon but everyone's mouth is different.

Another possibility is potato water. Boil potatoes, save water, make mashed potatoes. The pH is even higher, around 5.5. I don't know if amylase enzyme is needed for the starch but I add a bit just in case.

BTW, potato wine is good!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The process of raising the pH is changing where the salts in the system buffer out. The process depends on which minerals / acids are present so we only know what the end is by trying it as titrating one against the other.
As a very rough guess, if I took a 1:1 banana water with a TA of 0.19% (pH 5.14) an mixed it with Michigan blue berry with a TA of 1.54% (pH 3.11) the effect on the mixture TA would be mainly due to dilution. ie Like adding water. Again a rough guess the pH of 1:1 banana and BB might shift from 3.11 to 3.16. ,,, I can increase the effect if I switch to pink lemonade BB with a TA of 0.60% and pH of 3.97. ,,, We only know by trying.

 

[Kev6]

So, I made a 2cup batch of banana water and it came in at 5.2 pH. If I understand correctly then should I add this to an equal volume of my 3.08 must, the resulting pH would only marginally change. The dilution would not be enough to reach the 3.4 pH goal. Since it is still preferment maybe calcium carbonate is a better option.?

 

[Rice_Guy]

This is where we have several opinions on how to deal with it.
* my style is to run low pH. Yeast slow down at 2.8 so my normal is pH about 3.2+/-. I have lots of fruit therefore I run 100% fruit therefore see high TA as 1.2% therefore the finished gets backsweetened to 1.012 +/-.
*pH above 3.5 increases the risk of infection. Factory wines get sterile filtered therefore it could be done.
* calcium carbonate works, it is slow acting, calcium doesn’t cause flavor issues. Therefore add then wait a few days to see how much you pushed the pH.
* potassium bicarbonate acts fast, you can read pH when mixed for uniformity, an excess causes bitter taste
* TA is a better predator of finished taste. (ex soda can be 2.5 or 3 and folks like it / TA 0.15%). Adding water cuts the TA in a linear function. ex 1 water with 1 must reduces the acid flavor by 50% (how fast saliva washes acid)

Opinion; I blend fruit like peach and rhubarb 1:1 to change pH. I run high TA since I am using stuff out of the freezer,, not buying. I wouldn’t change pH but might change TA.
The work opinion is; the cost of goods looks better by adding water, therefore add water till the customer complains. (most juices have filtered water as number 1 ingredient)

 

[wood1954]

I’m currently fermenting almost the same must. I added 14 grams of potassium bicarbonate and raised the ph from 3.01 to 3.45.

 

[Ohio Bob]

The process of raising the pH is changing where the salts in the system buffer out. The process depends on which minerals / acids are present so we only know what the end is by trying it as titrating one against the other.
As a very rough guess, if I took a 1:1 banana water with a TA of 0.19% (pH 5.14) an mixed it with Michigan blue berry with a TA of 1.54% (pH 3.11) the effect on the mixture TA would be mainly due to dilution. ie Like adding water. Again a rough guess the pH of 1:1 banana and BB might shift from 3.11 to 3.16. ,,, I can increase the effect if I switch to pink lemonade BB with a TA of 0.60% and pH of 3.97. ,,, We only know by trying.

Since you are the expert in this field, here is a question for you. Can you use the Pearson Square method to arrive at the final result?

Or does the chemical interaction make this impossible? Does fortifying a wine with spirits work using the PS because the two components in the mixture are basically similar, and in chemistry terms is just a mixture?

 

[Kev6]

I was concerned about allowing the must to continue without inoculation so I elected to use calcium carbonate. Added incrementally to 1 Tbs total brought me up to 3.44. Also got sg to 1.094. I have had lower pH (3-3.2) ferments that I had difficulty getting to finish. A pinot grigio kit that wouldn't go below 1.006 after several attempts to get it going again. After several months at that sg I stabilized and bottled as a semisweet. Not bad just not what I expected.
I had a TA test kit but the reagents are old. I also wasn't very confident in my use of it. I'll keep an eye on the pH when I check sg and tweek if needed. During fermentation does co2 effect the readings? If so would degassing a small amount to test help?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Pearson’s square is not exact, but it is close enough that I use it for guessing how TA will blend.

Can you use the Pearson Square method to arrive at the final result?

I elected to use calcium carbonate. Added incrementally to 1 Tbs total brought me up to 3.44.
I had a TA test kit but the reagents are old. I also wasn't very confident in my use of it. I'll keep an eye on the pH when I check sg and tweek if needed. During fermentation does co2 affect the readings? If so would degassing a small amount to test help?

calcium carbonate is slow reacting. I wouldn’t be surprised if your pH is higher in a week. Check it, if the drift is over 0.2 unit check again in another week.
I degas all sparkling wines and ciders I test for gravity. A shift of 0.1 unit is common. Interesting, with ciders degassing lowers the pH, ie with CO2 has a higher pH.
A TA kit has sodium hydroxide solution which will degrade if left exposed to air / CO2. If it is sealed I would expect it to be good enough for home technique. I basically use my pH meter and titrate to 8.20 +/- 0.05 unit, The phenothalyene indicator is too hard to read with red juice , , , and I like red so I add aronia or black raspberry or red apple or mulberry or ….

 

[Kev6]

A TA kit has sodium hydroxide solution which will degrade if left exposed to air / CO2. If it is sealed I would expect it to be good enough for home technique. I basically use my pH meter and titrate to 8.20 +/- 0.05 unit, The phenothalyene indicator is too hard to read with red juice

With this method, I don't use the phenolphthalein and add sodium hydroxide to the measured must sample until the pH reads 8.20. Then multiply 0.25 by the amount in ml to get TA.? What volume of must do you use? If you couldn't tell, chemistry was a very long time ago.

 

[Kev6]

Banana water is made by briefly boiling ripe bananas, letting it cool a bit, then straining. It's something like a lb of bananas to a pint of water. I can't detect banana flavor at 100 ml per gallon but everyone's mouth is different.

When do you add the banana water, during primary or later??

 

[Rice_Guy]

The kit I started with:
* with a syringe or pipette measure 15 cc (ml) of wine (juice) into beaker
* add phenothalene
* with a clean syringe pull up 10cc of 0.2 normal sodium hydroxide
* add sodium hydroxide drop by drop till the pH rises to 8.2, ,,, color change. Record the volume.
* 1.0 cc of sodium hydroxide is equal to 0.1% TA,, or 1.5 cc is equal to 0.15% TA.
—————————————
What I actually do:
* measure the specific gravity
* weigh to 0.01 gram accuracy 5.00 grams of test material (some days I have 40 samples, this is easier than having 40 clean pipettes)
* Titrate with 0.2 normal NaOH to pH 8.2 +/- 0.05 (sometimes I overshoot as 8.4, oh well, ,,, record volume to 0.1 ml accuracy
* multiply volume times 1.5 times specific gravity divide by sample weight. (Things like acidic lemon juice get 1.00 gram). Record answer as percent TA

When I use banana water it goes into the must as part of the recipe. All musts are built to have a pH and gravity. TA is what ever it is and may get tweaked in the fermentation or at bottling.

 

[BigDaveK]

When do you add the banana water, during primary or later??

As mentioned, into the must at the beginning.

It can also be used much later to clear a stubborn wine. And I noticed my dedicated banana wines are possibly my fastest clearing.

 

[Kev6]

Yesterday sg was down to 1.062 and pH 3.26. I added 1 tsp of firmaid k and the 2 cups of banana water. Today sg1.044 pH still 3.26. I degassed the graduated cylinder prior to testing.
@Rice_Guy , @BigDaveK Thank you both for your patience. I've been making wine for over 10 years now averaging 4-5 batches /year 6 gal at a time. Mostly kit with the odd fruit and store bought juice thrown in. Seems the more I tinker with it the more complicated I make it for myself.

 

[Raptor99]

It can also be used much later to clear a stubborn wine. And I noticed my dedicated banana wines are possibly my fastest clearing.

Does it work better if you add it later? I've been adding banana water to my peach wine, but it still takes a very long time to clear.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Seems the more I tinker with it the more complicated I make it for myself.

You haven’t lived till you start making pH and TA changes by blending, ,,, and then start making improvements by blending in high tannin ingredient, or high aromatic, or nice color. ,,,

So many choices, , , its harvest season.

 

[back2it]

Hey @Rice_Guy, How did you stop the apples from falling off with the table at that angle?

 

[BigDaveK]

Does it work better if you add it later? I've been adding banana water to my peach wine, but it still takes a very long time to clear.

I've used it for clearing 3 times and each wine - 10-12 months old - was actually opaque, not plain hazy. No, it didn't work fast. After a week I could see through all of them, after two weeks they were crystal clear.

 

[FinalGravity]

Calcium carbonate. It's flavor neutral so you can use it for big pH swings. It's basically just chalk which is organic. It's insoluble in water so it is better used during fermentation. Using potassium carbonates you are adding potassium salt into your wine which is fine if you don't add too much, but with potassium bicarbonate the limit is not a lot. Not sure if it's different with potassium carbonate but it's a stronger base and preferable over bicarb.

The thing with calcium carbonate is that it makes calcium tartrate with fruits that have tartaric acid and it takes months before is drops out. So if you are fine with a little amount of black sediment in your wine or you make a country wine with fruit that doesn't have any it's the best opinion in my opinion..

 

[Kev6]

To update. I racked the end of Oct pH 3.35. Been sitting on fine lees since. Checked it today and still 3.35. Tastes pretty sharp. A little sugar in the sample brought up the fruit and a pinch of potassium bicarbonate tamed the bite (maybe too much). I know that I want to sweeten to bring out the fruit but don't want a dessert level. I understand that adding sweetness alters the perception of acidity so next step options:
Let it sit for another couple months then rack (add sorbate and sulfite) and
1. Cold stabilize then sweeten and if still to sharp adjust to taste with potassium bicarbonate.
2. Adjust acid to taste, cold stabilize then sweeten..
3. Skip cold stabilize and just sweeten and give it another month or two in bulk then adjust acid before bottling.
4.?