Bottle aging vs. carboy
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Sorry, I am not following you. What is your argument against adding wine to top it up?
When I am making wine, I like to think 1.5-2 yrs ahead. I kinda kept track roughly how much I drink. I usually drink 1 or sometimes 2 glasses a night or 2-3 bottles a week. If I have company its more so I figure 6 batches a year. So every year I make at least 6 batches to keep up. I am not a drinker though, I just enjoy the taste of wine, so I am not tempted to drink more. Figure out how much you drink and then plan on making that much. I have been aging my wine about 3 mos in carboy and then bottle. I usually put 24 bottles away in boxes, layed on their side, and leave out six for testing. I open one every 3 months starting about 9 mos. I have been thinking on waiting for 12 mos for my first testing with my new reds though. I have 12 carboys and there are 2 of us using them so really only 6. It would be difficult to age enough in carboys. I think that needs to be taken into consideration for your decision on bottle or carboy aging. If you only want to drink aged wine, you need to make enough to get ahead.
The first 2-3 years, you're making wine for your future self. That's the reality. It gets so much better over time that you owe it to yourself to wait. Have some for tasters along the way, but keep the bulk of it for 2-3 years or longer. Where you store it , bottle vs carboy doesn't really matter, but you'll need your storage for the next vintage or "batch", so think about that. That's usually what forces me to start bottling every late summer.
Now if you're only making a small amount, like a kit, you'll need to bottle, because otherwise it's difficult to keep your bulk storage topped up. And, since this topic of head space comes up all the time, I would propose you make a fairly standard wine like a cabernet or Merlot, or Zinfandel, and bottle it unoaked. Use that for future topping. That will take your future head space problems off the table.
Now if you're only making a small amount, like a kit, you'll need to bottle, because otherwise it's difficult to keep your bulk storage topped up. And, since this topic of head space comes up all the time, I would propose you make a fairly standard wine like a cabernet or Merlot, or Zinfandel, and bottle it unoaked. Use that for future topping. That will take your future head space problems off the table.
Probably could have added more details, my wine was started July last year and racked in October, and again in January when I added campden tablets , after first racking I had headspace and funnily enough less headspace in second carboy, must be smaller than previous carboy. So in conclusion I’ve had headspace for 5 months is it too late to reduce headspace now is the damage done.
What size is the kit? Large ones are typically 23 liter (6 US gallons), some are 3 gallons, and Winexpert sells 1 gallon. I have not heard of a 19 liter (5 gallon) kit, which doesn't mean they don't exist.
When I make 23 liter kits, I bulk age in a 19 liter carboy (mine are typically 5.25 US gallons), with the excess in smaller bottles. I have bottles from 200 ml on up to 1.5 liter and 4 liter jugs. #3 drilled stoppers fit bottles that are typical wine bottle size.
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Hi mine was 23 litres with grape pack and after racking had roughly 20 litres, I have a water bottle 19 litres but have heard about issues with them, I have 5 litre jugs which I can age in. As of now I’ve 20 litres of wine in a 23 litre carboy and am unsure of my next move,as I plan to barrel age soon I think multiple transfers could cause as much oxidation as excess headspace.
So, if you are concerned that it is "too late," then that means that you are concerned that the wine is spoiled and undrinkable. Soo, I would open the carboy, pour myself a glass, have a sip or three, and decide if it should be poured down the sink, or, if not, topped up.
That’s it in a nutshell, that’s tomorrow task, I just wonder why kits which takes 23 litres at startup and only produces 20/21 litres of wine have industry which produce mainly 23 litre carboys, I know there are smaller 19 litre carboy which aren’t as available, but then when kit makers describe 30 bottles it more appealing than 25 actual bottles.
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I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.
That’s probably more good advice from this forum, earlier advice was make sure to leave lees which flies in the face of extended maceration.
@WillShill, if you're down 3 liters from rackings, you're probably accidentally tossing good wine. Here's a few pointers:
1) DO NOT throw out the wine from the test jar when testing SG. Make sure all equipment is clean and sanitized. Test the SG and pour the wine back in. It is fine.
2) For the first racking from the carboy after fermentation is completely done, leave the wine a few more days for the lees to compact. If you rack early, the lees is not fully settled and contains a lot of wine -- waiting a few days helps with this. Watch the sediment level, and use a grease pen or dry board marker to mark the level each day.
3) Put a wedge under the carboy and when racking, and angle the end of the racking cane towards the edge. The surface area of the wine is reduced and the depth is increased, so you get more wine out of the carboy. Sometimes I get a bit of lees in that racking, but I catch in during the next racking.
4) Pour the sludge into a tall bottle and put it in the fridge for a week. In many cases the lees will resettle and you'll recover wine. I've had a 1.5 liter bottle of pure sludge compact to 1" high. I've also had the lees settle so there was 1/4" of clear wine on top, not enough to recover. It doesn't always work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Kit manufacturers say the carboy doesn't need topping, and enough folks have posted that they don't top and have no problems for me to believe it. For normal kit aging, it appears the headspace is not a problem. However, if you're aging longer, eliminate the headspace.
I have no idea how much headspace is too much, what the dividing line is. However, topping the carboy eliminates the question, so I go with that. This is a personal choice.
In my area, 5 gallon carboys are equally available as 6.
The instructions I've read say to have 28-30 bottles available for bottling. IME, if the kit is diluted to exactly 23 liters and racking is carefully done, 28 bottles is fairly accurate.
Oxidation is not a quick process. Excess headspace over a period of weeks or months (depending on the batch size and the amount of headspace) oxidizes wine. If you are racking at a reasonable pace, O2 is not a problem. When going 1 year from start to bottling, I rack probably 6 times (max of 8 in rare circumstances), and do not have oxidation problems.
1) DO NOT throw out the wine from the test jar when testing SG. Make sure all equipment is clean and sanitized. Test the SG and pour the wine back in. It is fine.
2) For the first racking from the carboy after fermentation is completely done, leave the wine a few more days for the lees to compact. If you rack early, the lees is not fully settled and contains a lot of wine -- waiting a few days helps with this. Watch the sediment level, and use a grease pen or dry board marker to mark the level each day.
3) Put a wedge under the carboy and when racking, and angle the end of the racking cane towards the edge. The surface area of the wine is reduced and the depth is increased, so you get more wine out of the carboy. Sometimes I get a bit of lees in that racking, but I catch in during the next racking.
4) Pour the sludge into a tall bottle and put it in the fridge for a week. In many cases the lees will resettle and you'll recover wine. I've had a 1.5 liter bottle of pure sludge compact to 1" high. I've also had the lees settle so there was 1/4" of clear wine on top, not enough to recover. It doesn't always work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Kit manufacturers say the carboy doesn't need topping, and enough folks have posted that they don't top and have no problems for me to believe it. For normal kit aging, it appears the headspace is not a problem. However, if you're aging longer, eliminate the headspace.
I have no idea how much headspace is too much, what the dividing line is. However, topping the carboy eliminates the question, so I go with that. This is a personal choice.
In my area, 5 gallon carboys are equally available as 6.
The instructions I've read say to have 28-30 bottles available for bottling. IME, if the kit is diluted to exactly 23 liters and racking is carefully done, 28 bottles is fairly accurate.
Oxidation is not a quick process. Excess headspace over a period of weeks or months (depending on the batch size and the amount of headspace) oxidizes wine. If you are racking at a reasonable pace, O2 is not a problem. When going 1 year from start to bottling, I rack probably 6 times (max of 8 in rare circumstances), and do not have oxidation problems.
Extended maceration is exposure to the pulp. Lees is fine fruit solids that have settled out of suspension -- from what I've read the lees begins to decompose relatively quickly, and we remove that from the wine to avoid the decomposition from negatively affecting the wine. I read several article that say the decomposition doesn't start until the lees settle, although I don't recall the exact explanation.
If we are talking about kit instructions that say to leave the lees and stir it back into suspension for the fining agents to work better, that's yet a different scenario. Fermentation has ended shortly before, the lees are still settling. The fining agents typically used in kits, kieselsol & chitosan, work amazingly fast, so the lees is removed fairly quickly.
This is a lot to absorb all at once. Search for reputable grape research organizations (there are many) and read what they have to say. Some of it is WAYYYY too technical as my high school chemistry and biology is decades old, but a lot of it is worthwhile reading.
It has taken me 3 years to learn the things @winemaker81 put in his last two posts. I‘ve honed my racking skills so I have less headspace now. Although I have gotten away with leaving it between the “end of fermentation“ racking and the “racking off lees“ racking, once into bulk aging I always top up.
One other variable to deal with is that not all carboys are created equal. It’s not much, maybe 100ml, but does create mystery headspace. Or sometimes when racking from a smaller one to a larger one I have excess wine. I either put it in a bottle for later topping or just drink it. Someday I want to measure all my carboys and label them.
edit: I get the excess when going from larger to smaller. Duh!
One other variable to deal with is that not all carboys are created equal. It’s not much, maybe 100ml, but does create mystery headspace. Or sometimes when racking from a smaller one to a larger one I have excess wine. I either put it in a bottle for later topping or just drink it. Someday I want to measure all my carboys and label them.
edit: I get the excess when going from larger to smaller. Duh!
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I’m at the learning stage definitely and racking is probably one of the trickier ones single handed , funny thing since my trip to Bordeaux with my wife and her new found love of red wine she’s quite interested in helping.
Totally agree with your point on carboy sizes , my current one requires probably 1/2 bottles to top up , the previous one looked like 4/5 bottles.
You do not want to age in a carboy with any headspace below the neck. Any length of time sitting with with all that head space and you'll end up with oxidized wine. It's always best to rack to smaller containers or top up with a similar wine until the level is in the neck.
I always get 30-31 bottles as well
I get 30 only if I keep racking into a 6 gallon carboy and top up as necessary. If I rack down rather than topping up, I get a couple of bottles less.
Ajmassa
just a guy
yep. it’s all the little things that add up like @winemaker81 noted.
- carboy volume variance
-tiling for easier racking
-mixed up lees/wine refrigerate to separate
-i also tie a piece of mesh to the end of my cane
at this point i wouldn’t want to add that much wine to top up. and i wouldn’t want to remove o2 with with vacuum for extended amount of time either.
i’d probably bite the bullet, get a 5gal carboy and store remainder in bottles/jugs. and then will have the foresight for the next time. Because as always seems to be the case—- majority of my winemaking knowledge comes from screwing up or having an issue- then troubleshooting said issue. Only then is it fully committed to memory.
I have to say the winemakers on this forum have kept me busy since I entered this thread, I’ve been getting great insight and advice from lots of members happy to help a novice, if this batch is compromised I’ve another finishing extended maceration in two weeks and two more kits itching to be made.
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