Bottle fermentation - what went wrong?

[kboroff]

We have been making wine from juice for a couple years and have been pleased with the result. However, over the last year we have had two batches go bad in the bottle.

They were good flavor and clear at bottleing. We like our wine off-dry, 1.010SG, so we added potassium sorbate at bottling. We bottled in April. In late summer we noticed some effervescence in the bottles. Noe they have gone bad with chanpaign bubble and a terrible taste. How do good wines go bad in a few months?

 

[ibglowin]

Could have been a sanitization problem. You could have made a mistake in the addition of the sorbate and not added enough. Also remember that sorbate has a pretty short shelf life once its been opened. Always use it up within 6 months of opening or toss it and buy a new bottle/package. Sulfite levels may not have been right. Did you check the pH and monitor the sulfite levels along the way?

 

[Runningwolf]

Good information from Mike. Sorbate as he said should be kept in a cool dark place. With a 6 month shelf life you have no idea how fresh it was when you bought it from the retailer. The newest sorbate now has a one year self life. The other thing besides the meta is how sanitized were your bottles and bottle filling equipment/hoses. Were these sanitized just before filling?

Were these wines back sweetened? It sounds like maybe a refermentation.

 

[LanMan]

Not to hijack but if you are worried can you re-sorbate with new without affecting the taste of the wine?

 

[Turock]

Did you also add some meta too? I've read that sorbate doesn't like to work as well if you don't add it along with the sorbate.

What kind of wine was this? How long had it aged before bottling? It could also be that it had too much CO2 in it at bottling.

 

[mmadmikes1]

No do not add extra sorbate, it will effect taste.Unlike K-mets, sorbate does not breakdown and dissipate.
If the wine was not truly finished fermenting you can add all the K-meta and sorbate you like and it will still finish fermenting in the bottles. Sorbate and K-meta will not stop an active fermentation, period. A thousand times people say patience and a thousand time people hurry the process. A couple of blown corks and red wine all over a room will break most people, and it seem most of us have all learn using this method. Please dont rush to bottling. Bulk aging makes better wine and will prevent bottle bombs

 

[ibglowin]

True dat.......

 

[cpfan]

We have been making wine from juice for a couple years and have been pleased with the result. However, over the last year we have had two batches go bad in the bottle.

They were good flavor and clear at bottleing. We like our wine off-dry, 1.010SG, so we added potassium sorbate at bottling. We bottled in April. In late summer we noticed some effervescence in the bottles. Noe they have gone bad with chanpaign bubble and a terrible taste. How do good wines go bad in a few months?

I don't understand your process here, especially the highlighted "so we added potassium sorbate at bottling". Did you ferment to dry, and then sweeten & sorbate at bottling? Or did you ferment to 1.010 and then add sorbate and bottle?

Perhaps some details on your steps (with dates and specific gravities) would help to understand your process, and perhaps spot the problem.

Steve

 

[kboroff]

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll give you a timeline on the White Zin.
9-19-10 started SG 1.082
10-23 SG 0.990, racked, added sugar
12-01 racked
1-03-11 racked, SG1.012
2-10 racked
5-3 racked, added sugar to SG 1.008, 1 1/2 t pot. sorbate
6-26 SG 1.008, bottled
Equipment is always sanitized prior to racking, bottling. Only added Camden tabs (4 to 5G) at begining. Have not tested PH or SO2. I was never comfortabe with Acuvin kits. I just bought a Vinmetrica on recommendations from this forum. The 5-3 was splash racked with a pump to degas.

 

[AlFulchino]

the Vinmetrica system is a wonderful tool...i use it and highly recommend

by your dates you should have added the sorbate prior to the sugar....in fact i would recommend that the sorbate have time to integrate a week or two before adding your sugar
you added sugar on 10/23 and then proceeded to open your carboy several times to the open air before May 3rd came along and you did the sorbate...so even if all the yeast in your wine had been consumed/used up, you invited yeast in the air to come back and visit your wine

did i misread anything about what you did?

in fact i need to edit in and add something....you should have noted that your sg changed from initial sugar addition to the second sugar addition....it was indicating to you that the wine was undergoing some fermentation....and you then trapped this process in your bottle...what air was in there gave the fuel to sparkle your wine ...when you added the secnod amount of sugar and sorbate at the same time you have to remember that whatever yeast is already active in your wine is ready to feed on that second sugar addition

 

[AlFulchino]

ps...by the way, good job w the notes...a lot of folks forget the value in this because it seems so monotonous ...sometimes me guilty of that too!

 

[ibglowin]

Well that explains it. Potassium sorbate will not stop an active fermentation. You needed to ferment to completely dry. Add Potassium sorbate and KMETA, then back sweeten to desired level.

When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will render any surviving yeast incapable of multiplying. Yeast living at that moment can continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation.

 

[AlFulchino]

Mike....sorbate will stop an active fermentation by what i have witnessed....but its risky to get exactly the final sg you want....so i sterile filter at my target sg and then sorbate..this permits a lower abv wine w sweetness and no sugar addition

lots of pruning await me this week

 

[ibglowin]

Thats is not what is in the literature. The bold sentence above is a direct quote from the Wikipedia page on Potassium Sorbate use in the stabilization of wine.

Sterile filtering would definitely make a big difference in the chances of a re-fermentation but it doesn't appear the OP performed that step on his.

 

[cpfan]

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll give you a timeline on the White Zin.
9-19-10 started SG 1.082
10-23 SG 0.990, racked, added sugar
12-01 racked
1-03-11 racked, SG1.012
2-10 racked
5-3 racked, added sugar to SG 1.008, 1 1/2 t pot. sorbate
6-26 SG 1.008, bottled

• started at about 11.6%
• added sugar on 10/23 to unknown sg
• has only dropped to 1.012 by 1/03 - I would have expected it below 1.000
• by 5/3 it's dropped so far that sugar was needed to bring it back to 1.008
• some of the sugar added on 5/3 should have fermented by 6/26

I don't understand why it hadn't fermented down by 1/03, but did ferment down in another 4 months. Was the wine cold?

I don't see the volume of wine, so I have no way to know if 1.5 tsp of K-sorbate is correct. You probably should have added the K-sorbate before the sugar, but adding them together is probably OK. I'm assuming (s.g. unknown) that the wine was not fermenting at that point.

It's definitely recommended that K-meta be added with K-sorbate. I would expect that the wine would be low in sulfites after 9 months and 5 rackings.

The bubbles seem to indicate that something has fermented in the bottle. Given your data I am having trouble understanding what.

MLF and K-sorbate result in aromas (geranium-like). I don't know how it affects taste, if at all. MLF isn't mentioned anyway.

Too much K-sorbate might give a bubble gum taste. 1.5 tsp is about right for 5 gallons.

One more question - what was the source of the White Zin? Kit? Juice?

Steve

 

[mmadmikes1]

My point was if you can make a wine then mlf it and it is safe without sorbate why do you have to have sorbate to be safe????. Yes I can taste sorbate, that's why "I" don't use it. It is a wine of yours do as you please but stop tell everyone it has to be used. This is not true

 

[Turock]

If you are bottling DRY wine, no sorbate needs to be used. It's only used if sugar has been added for sweetness because sugar is food for yeast and will continue to multiply (ferment) if sorbate isn't added.

It can be dangerous to sorbate an MLF because it's hard to know if all the MLB has been metabolized.

I agree with the poster who said you always ferment to dryness before you go to secondary fermentation. You have less problems. We never shoot for residual sweetness since it's easy to backsweeten,later.

We use 1/2 tsp of sorbate per gallon, along with 1 1/2 campden tabs per 5 gallons when we have backsweetened.

 

[AlFulchino]

a couple of points based on what Mike and Turock said

Mike..i can give you this next info and probably if i explained myself better there would be little disagreement.....i have a dessert wine that i start at about 1.13...i need to end at 1.08...i can achieve this two ways.....both require sorbate...and i have done these side by side for two years to verify my results.....first i can sterile filter when the wine hits 1.08 and then stabilize w k meta OR i can take the same wine at around 1.095 and rack into a tank w sorbate and k meta and get it under airlock.....in a weeks time it will be at 1.08 w all fermentation complete and the wine stable.....so i was attempting to say that the fermentation would stop because no reproduction was occurring... naturally i agree w your literature but the point i was making stands if you account for your sg, which i do.....saying the sorbate stops the fermentation is actually...your point is that the current active yeast performs until its death...


Turock if i was a home wine maker and wanting to get every last drop of wine then when i got near the bottom you run a big chance of picking up some yeast that is still viable even if you went to dry by your sg readings and kit time tables...i do not care if you fermented to dry...you had better play it safe and use the sorbate if you are not sterile filtering....i think if kit wine makers to use the rule of thumb , *if you ferment to dry you dont need sorbate* it would be precarious for their wine ...winemaking forums are filled to the brim w stories of fermentations occurring after bottling, wine corks popping while on racks and wine all over the floor

i agree w you on the mlf subject

as to it being easier to back sweeten later...i agree, but there are occasions you left out that may come into play such as wanting lower alcohol in your wine....

 

[mmadmikes1]

Al. you could never make wine commercial the way I do and still sell it to a large enough market. My wines are STRONG. I max out the yeast to alc tolerance levels. They are dead when I get done. After bulk aging for a year before bottling, I have no fears. I go for wine with residual sweet(if I want sweet) by adding sugar to a specific SG till the wine stops fermenting. I like mead at 1.02 and keep adding honey to that level until fermentation stops. It works for me. I will use yeast with lower tolerance to achieve my goals as well. I do filter as well. Al,that being said I have 2 cases of Syrah that suck because I got the ABV to high. It is a learning curve and I think I am on the good part of curve now.

 

[AlFulchino]

Mike...agreed..grape wines are a different ball game...i make and sell 25 wines...from 8% up to the legal limit.....my higher octane wines are among the most popular

be patient w that high abv wine.....every few month open one bottle to see if the alc has waned.....if not run thru an aerator....if that aerator doe sthe trick then likley your wine is a few to 6 mos from being wonderful out of the bottle w/ o any tools to assist...when it is, you will likely have something spectacular