Brand New to Wine Making

[Mark McD]

I have about 5 years experience in brewing beer & finally decided to leap into the wine vat. I'm starting with Winexpert Reserve Australian Shiraz - it's still on the way so it'll be a few days yet & I have a couple of beers waiting to ferment before I can do the wine.

Questions:
I have a fermenting fridge that is temp controlled - I presume wine yeasts are similar to beer yeast in that a constant temp means a better result?

Is there a 'best temp' for a shiraz? e.g. Coopers kits I recall saying to brew at ~25° or so but any brewer will tell you for normal yeasts it's better around 18°

I can brew as per instructions using Coopers fermenters, temp controlled, no airlock but then I've never used those for beers either. But I also have steel kegmenters, ~30L - is there any reason to NOT use the stainless kegmenters?

Can wine be fermented under pressure? I kinda like the idea of sparkling shiraz & if you brew beer under pressure it comes out already cabonated. Is this how sparkling shiraz is made?

I presume, like beer, the settling period in bottles needs to be constant temp? Beer can halt carbonating if the temp drops. I have a cupboard & a temp controller I can use to ensure the bottles remain at or close to ferment temp for the yeast - is that needed, given the racking etc to ensure a clear wine? Or do I just stick them in the cupboard for a year to age?

Any & all advice welcome...

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT!

Very little of what you know about fermenting beer applies to wine.

Wine yeast needs O2 for reproduction, so fermentation typically is best in an open container, stirred 1-4 times daily. I cover my primaries (typically 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brutes) with beach towels.

My fermentation temperature in the fall varies from 62 F to 68 F. Large batches of wine produce a fair amount of heat, so must temperature is likely to be higher than ambient temperature.

My cellar has dropped as low as 52 F this winter, which helps with cold stabilization (excess tartaric drops as crystals) but a constant temperature is not required.

Wine making is much more a patience game then beer making. It requires more time.

A view of winemaking is my running dialog of the 2024 wines: https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2024-wines-in-detail/

 

[Mark McD]

Welcome to WMT!

Very little of what you know about fermenting beer applies to wine.

Wine yeast needs O2 for reproduction, so fermentation typically is best in an open container, stirred 1-4 times daily. I cover my primaries (typically 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brutes) with beach towels.

My fermentation temperature in the fall varies from 62 F to 68 F. Large batches of wine produce a fair amount of heat, so must temperature is likely to be higher than ambient temperature.

My cellar has dropped as low as 52 F this winter, which helps with cold stabilization (excess tartaric drops as crystals) but a constant temperature is not required.

Wine making is much more a patience game then beer making. It requires more time.

A view of winemaking is my running dialog of the 2024 wines: https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2024-wines-in-detail/

Thanks very much! I suspected it would be different which is why I put the stuff about beer in there - to show where I'm coming from. I'll check out you link.

One Q though - beer needs O2 also, but only right at the start. After pitching the yeast, O2 ist verboten. The must needs it all the way through the process?

Also I have more research to do over the W/E before my pkg arrives.

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

A fair number of members, including me, are beer makers as well. In my youth I made a lot of beer, but am very sporadic in recent years. There are 2 important things about wine making:

1. It's a much slower process and patience is key.

2. Ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 opinions. And at least 10 will be valid.

The funniest part of #2 is that it's accurate.

A difficulty for new winemakers is that you can get 2 diametrically different opinions ... that are both valid. Consider "why" someone does what they do, and use that to make your own decisions.

 

[Mark McD]

A fair number of members, including me, are beer makers as well. In my youth I made a lot of beer, but am very sporadic in recent years. There are 2 important things about wine making:

1. It's a much slower process and patience is key.

2. Ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 opinions. And at least 10 will be valid.

The funniest part of #2 is that it's accurate.

A difficulty for new winemakers is that you can get 2 diametrically different opinions ... that are both valid. Consider "why" someone does what they do, and use that to make your own decisions.

OK, I'll bite... Why do you stir up to 4 times a day?
Is there a symptom that informs when you stir? Do you stir vigorously, as in make bubbles form to stir in the air or more just move the liquid around a bit?

Also is stirring one of the things that I'd get different opinions about? Does NOT stirring regularly 'fail' the wine?

 

[winemaker81]

The primary value of stirring/punch down is getting O2 into the wine. A secondary value is to keeping the cap from drying out, to avoid mold. This also helps with extraction from the fruit. When? When I have time.

All of my 2024 wines were fermented on the skins, so I did punch down, not stirring of juice. For juice or kits, gentle stirring to ensure nothing is settling on the surface is sufficient.

@VinesnBines does a submerged cap for some of her wines, due to her situation, which is also effective.

Since you're doing a kit, go to my Wines in Detail page and read the Barbera and Chardonnay pages. These detailed walk throughs will give you a view of the process.

My goal is to help you understand the overall process. When you get your kit, things will make a lot more sense

 

[winemaker81]

One Q though - beer needs O2 also, but only right at the start. After pitching the yeast, O2 ist verboten. The must needs it all the way through the process?

Wine yeast needs O2 3/4 of the way through the ferment. The last 1/4 is open to discussion.

 

[Rice_Guy]

welcome to WMT
You are starting with a kit so its good to follow the directions at least once. As Bryan noted yeast need oxygen for reproduction therefore air at the start is good. Depending in what it is I may rack into a carboy at 1.050. I try it with all whites. Cell production should be done at 1.050. Grape on skins are subject to infection/ require mixing, so anaerobic depends on what wine.
I have looked at ads for a pressurized fermentor which is a PET& nylon film. I have been tempted to order a two gallon, mainly because I want a two gallon size container. I may pressure ferment at some point. Technically the yeast will do it once the cell population is up.

Many beer yeast are adapted for low temperatures. Most wine yeast are adapted for above 50F / 10C. Using grapes the extraction is one issue. Most reds are fermented above 70F, but you could run lower especially since you have juice in a kit. For laughs I have run as low as 45F, it works even though it took forever.

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[Mark McD]

welcome to WMT
You are starting with a kit so its good to follow the directions at least once. As Bryan noted yeast need oxygen for reproduction therefore air at the start is good. Depending in what it is I may rack into a carboy at 1.050. I try it with all whites. Cell production should be done at 1.050. Grape on skins are subject to infection/ require mixing, so anaerobic depends on what wine.
I have looked at ads for a pressurized fermentor which is a PET& nylon film. I have been tempted to order a two gallon, mainly because I want a two gallon size container. I may pressure ferment at some point. Technically the yeast will do it once the cell population is up.

Many beer yeast are adapted for low temperatures. Most wine yeast are adapted for above 50F / 10C. Using grapes the extraction is one issue. Most reds are fermented above 70F, but you could run lower especially since you have juice in a kit. For laughs I have run as low as 45F, it works even though it took forever.

I do plan to follow WE instructions, but the experience of strange advice on the Coopers beer kit cans about temps has me cautious, so I figured I'd look for newbie 'gotchas' that might avoid vinegar because of some rookie mistake.

 

[winemaker81]

I do plan to follow WE instructions, but the experience of strange advice on the Coopers beer kit cans about temps has me cautious, so I figured I'd look for newbie 'gotchas' that might avoid vinegar because of some rookie mistake.

The instructions provided by major vendors such as WE, RJ Spagnols, and Finer Wine Kits are solid. Others are, too, but I don't have direct experience so I can't speak reliably.

Note that kit instructions work, but experienced winemakers may not consider them optimal. Kit instructions are designed to ensure a newbie with no experienced help, make a successful wine on the first try and every try. Failure does not bring repeat business.

Another post that may be useful: https://wine.bkfazekas.com/whats-in-a-wine-kit/

Yeah, I write a lot of stuff, as it's easier to write a post once and point folks to the post ...

Note -- I don't do advertising, don't collect personal information, and don't run my own forum (this one keeps me busy enough).

 

[Rice_Guy]

I do plan to follow WE instructions, ,,, look for newbie 'gotchas' that might avoid vinegar because of some rookie mistake.

Vinegar usually means Acetobacter which means oxygen exposure past 1.000 gravity/ when CO2 production is finished. I try not to go there, but folks that do extended maceration on skins risk it. Low level acetic acid is part of the natural flavor of wine,

Kits are designed to be ready in ninety days. The biggest difference in kits and juice is that chemicals are included to precipitate fine material (and maybe flavor). One could skip the fining agent and let gravity do it over six or nine months. The next step up is using real fruit which will include lots of processing hardware but may allow for stronger tannins or brighter pigments. I do more rhubarb and apple so I have had hardware. For six gallon size it isn’t too hard to do a milk crate destemer and kitchen tools to pull out pulp (mom could).

 

[Jovimaple]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[David Violante]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[BPL]

Welcome to the group. Some of my opinions for your consideration....

I suggest forgetting what you know about beer. Very little applies. Yeast need Oxygen, I agree. Stirring must to put Oxygen into the fermentation does do that. However, the dissolved Oxygen that is accumulated in an open container of water and the amount in the must when the grapes are crushed, the must is mixed with water, nutrients added/stirred in, and so forth, is adequate for complete fermentation. An example would be starting a batch of wine and putting a lid on the fermenter with an airlock. Wine will be produced just fine without any stirring at all. Adding oxygen by stirring essentially speeds up fermentation to a small degree.

The short answer is, a fruit bag with skins/pulp should be "punched down" 3x to 4x per day, ONLY to keep the top of the material moist and keep bacteria from forming. The stirring part is not necessary, but it doesn't hurt either.

As far as temperature, red wines are best fermented at warmer temperatures of the yeast range, to promote color and tannins. White wines are fermented at the lower ranges of yeast to retain aromas and fruiter notes. There are multiple resources to find yeast specifications. I keep a digital copy of the Scott Labs handbook on my computer for easy reference: https://scottlabsltd.com/content/files/documents/sll/handbooks/scott can 2024 wm.pdf The "best" temperature is what you are targeting and what you want in a wine. Two different wines can be made from the same must using different temperatures, one cooler, one warmer.

I have a temperature controlled fermenting box that can control within +/- 1*F. For reference purposes, the majority of my white wines are fermented at 63* to 65*, some yeasts can go colder. For reds, they are fermented at 75* to 78*. That's cooler for some folks, but I TARGET my reds to have more fruiter notes. So yes, temperature makes a huge difference.

The yeasts that comes with kits will make wine. However the companies' selections insure success with the kit. That doesn't mean the highest quality will be made. Most WE kits that I have used comes with EC1118, a neutral yeast. Under most conditions EC1118 will ferment a rock.

As far as the instructions that comes with the kits, the majority (WE specifically) are much less than optimal, IMHO, barely adequate. Finer Wine Kits, set the bar pretty high with very specific instructions with the 'why's' included in the steps.

All the best.

Barry

 

[Mark McD]

Under most conditions EC1118 will ferment a rock

Gives new meaning to sedimentation...

The forums are being very helpful - I lucked out on the 1st one I tried! Cheers all!

 

[BPL]

The forums are being very helpful

Forums are good. Books are sometimes better. The best I've seen are Daniel's books. Facts are hard to argue with. https://techniquesinhomewinemaking.com/winemaking-books/

Barry

 

[Mark McD]

Forums are good. Books are sometimes better.

Thanks for the link. Books can be great sources but many I've seen are a bit difficult for absolute newbs to get their head around - the experts who write them sometimes forget how big the gaps in understanding might be. Forums tend to be replete in those who clearly recall the gotchas & stumbles they made early on.

I intend my 1st attempt to be according to the kit instructions so exploring at present is to get some idea of what possibilities are for after the 1st batch is on the shelf.

I quite like the idea of using some of my spare corny kegs for aging & maybe even for serving, although that might mean extra hardware for pressure to push it.
One possibility for that is I want to try a sparkling shiraz - I've liked those I've had locally. (Australia) I'd need to learn how wine reacts under pressure I think, but I could always carb with CO2 if pressure ferment isn't an option. A number of people on here have been using kegs rather than bottles & a couple mentioned CO2 for purging headspace instead of argon.
With a sparkling wine I could hook the keg into my system & serve using CO2 at a lower pressure than the beers, to push the wine through.

I'm wondering if, for a keg of red, fill the corny then a brief purge with CO2 would leave enough O2 in there to be equivalent to what is in a bottle when it is corked.

Also I found a method for making sparkling reds that is champenoise style so that's a possibility for later, once I have drinkable wine.
I think I will have to use my temp controlled fridge though - it's summer here & we've got weeks of >30° forecast so that's a bit warm for uncontrolled fermenting.

Anyway, off to make lunch then do more reading.

 

[BPL]

so exploring at present is to get some idea of what possibilities are for after the 1st batch is on the shelf.

I understand your intention. However, discovering the nuances of wine will take much more than one WE batch. I've been at it for close to over 6 years and studying wine almost every day and I'm just starting to understand the methods to target what I want. From your comments I take it you are not located in the US, so Finer Wine Kits are out of the picture. However, the instructions can be down loaded from the Label Peelers web site for the different classes of wines.

 

[winemaker81]

As far as temperature, red wines are best fermented at warmer temperatures of the yeast range, to promote color and tannins.

@Mark McD, this is one of those things where there are diametrically opposed schools of thought that are both valid.

The old school of thought is to ferment reds at higher temperatures, which extracts more color and tannin, at the expense of volatile aroma and fruit. I say "old school" as this is what I was originally taught. Circa 1990 I knew a researcher at the Geneva NY grape research center who was experimenting with fermenting NY Pinot Noir at various temperatures to measure the differences in the results.

Since 2020, I've been fermenting all reds with ScottZyme Color Pro, a maceration enzyme. My cellar is 62 to 68 F in the fall, so I'm fermenting relatively cold. I get consistently strong color extraction and nice tannin. To describe it delicately, in all wines the color survives passage the full length of the alimentary canal, e.g., dark purple in, dark purple out. Yeah, it can be a bit freaky.

Understanding maceration enzymes is an extensive exercise, which I am not sufficiently versed to describe. I reviewed numerous enzymes and found one I like and I use it.

My 2023 Chambourcin is DARK.



Notice that my finger is totally invisible through the wine in the next photo. I was messing with the glass while typing this post, and realized I could not see my finger through even the tiniest amount of wine.



I've used Color Pro in the following wines: Bordeaux Blend (Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot, Malbec), Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chambourcin, Grenache, Merlot (2x), Rhone Blend (Mourvedre, Syrah, Petite Sirah), Tempranillo, Zinfandel. Plus 2 wine kits that included skin packs: FWK Super Tuscan, FWK Merlot, Petite Sirah, Syrah.

I get amazing color extraction on everything. However, it is an additional cost.

This might surprise you, but I'm not trying to convince you to do things my way. I AM trying to convince you to keep your options open and to make what at the time is your best decision.

It's actually a great idea to try different things. Experiment and have fun!

When my niece visits in a couple of months I'll be opening 3 bottles of the Chambourcin. I fermented in 2 batches, one with Renaissance Avante and one with Renaissance Bravo yeast. I reserved 1 bottle of each batch and blended the remainder. So we'll try each yeast vs the blend.