Confused

[Vlabruz]

Can you buy buckets of frozen must with the skins? I keep seeing just juice or fresh grapes. I want to try stepping up from kits this fall but don't have the equipment to start with grapes.

 

[cmason1957]

Frozen must (at least the reds) seem to always be fresh off the crusher/destemmer and flash frozen. As in the skins, seeds, probably some ste m s are in what you get. Generally, from what I have seen a 5 gallon bucket makes about 2.5 gallons of wine.

 

[Chuck E]

You will still need to press the must. You can make a cheap press from plastic buckets.

 

[tmcfadden932]

DeltaPacking.com when in season, ships from Lodi, Ca. Don't know if they still have any this late in the season. Contact them.

 

[Jim Welch]

You will still need to press the must. You can make a cheap press from plastic buckets.

I’ve never made a frozen must wine but want to, does the must need to be pressed pre-fermentation?

 

[sour_grapes]

I’ve never made a frozen must wine but want to, does the must need to be pressed pre-fermentation?

No, for reds at least, you treat it like just-crushed grapes upon thawing.

 

[Vlabruz]

I definitely want to do this.

 

[Jim Welch]

No, for reds at least, you treat it like just-crushed grapes upon thawing.

Thank you for that info, I think that may answer another related question I have. I've pre-ordered 2 juice buckets and 2 lugs of grapes that are due around May1. If I freeze the grapes then thaw them do you think they would be ready to go into the fermenter with the juice? I have a small stainless press if that is needed but if I could skip pressing them before fermentation I would.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thank you for that info, I think that may answer another related question I have. I've pre-ordered 2 juice buckets and 2 lugs of grapes that are due around May1. If I freeze the grapes then thaw them do you think they would be ready to go into the fermenter with the juice? I have a small stainless press if that is needed but if I could skip pressing them before fermentation I would.

I am sure you would not be making this mistake, but it almost sounds like you are confusing "pressing" and "crushing." Speaking generally, the grapes should be crushed before fermenting them. After the fermentation is complete, you need to press the must. When you buy frozen pails of must, those grapes have been crushed (and probably destemmed) before freezing. Freezing uncrushed grapes would probably help, but I don't think that freezing is sufficient. Anyone else have a more-infrormed opinion?

 

[Jim Welch]

Yes I may be confusing those two terms in my question, except for one banana wine I've only made kits, canned fruit base, and lately frozen grape concentrate wines. Maybe the place I'm buying this from will have a crusher/destemmer on site I can run the grape lugs through. I'll have to check with the vendor.

 

[tmcfadden932]

Red wine is made on the skins and pressed after fermentation. Rose' is made with the juice from fresh red grapes, crushed and then pressed before fermentation. You don't get the dark color because of the limited skin contact. Rose' is made like a white wine, that is a cold fermentation around 50F and then warmed up to 65F when the fermentation slows to get it to complete.

Getting the skin to juice ratio correct will make the best red wine. The flavor comes mostly from the skins, not the juice. We made a Barbera a decade ago and what came off the press after the main tank was full went into a beer keg. We used the keg to top with before we tasted it. What came of the skins at the end from the press was far superior to what came off early. Only saved about 4 cases of the wine from the keg instead of the 6 that it held. We learned from that one.

I make wine from Cab/Sauv now and manage the vineyard in the Lodi, Ca AVA, where the fruit comes from. We stress the vines with just enough water to get the grapes to about the size of a large Blueberry. The skin to juice ratio is correct and it makes great wine. 220 vines produce about 4,500lbs of fruit and 130 cases of wine.

 

[winemaker81]

We made a Barbera a decade ago and what came off the press after the main tank was full went into a beer keg. We used the keg to top with before we tasted it. What came of the skins at the end from the press was far superior to what came off early. Only saved about 4 cases of the wine from the keg instead of the 6 that it held. We learned from that one.

The difference between the light pressing and hard pressing of a wine can be amazing, enough that folks won't believe the two are the same wine.

 

[Vlabruz]

The difference between the light pressing and hard pressing of a wine can be amazing, enough that folks won't believe the two are the same wine.

So to clarify, a harder machine press is better?

 

[Rocky]

So to clarify, a harder machine press is better?

My experience is the opposite. A lighter press has less chance of crushing the seeds which would cause bitterness in the wine. We pressed firmly but not with too much pressure to avoid crushing the seeds.

 

[winemaker81]

So to clarify, a harder machine press is better?

It's depends. Like many things in winemaking, there's no "one size fits all".

My experiences are different from @Rocky's in this regard. I find the heavy pressings are darker and heavier, more flavor and body. It may be that my current press (Italian #4) and previous presses couldn't crank hard enough to crack seeds, or maybe my sensitivity to bitterness is less than Rocky's.

For my 2019 second run (pomace of Merlot, Malbec, & Zinfandel) I got about 12 gallons of free run and pressed another 3+ gallons out, which I segregated. Then I pressed hard and got another 8 gallons. Note that a basket press has no gauge to determine pressure -- I crank until it won't crank any more, give it 5 minutes and repeat. Back off the pressure once or twice, and keep doing it until I literally can't turn the press. YMMV

I used some of the heavy press to top the barrel the light press was in, and bottled the remainder (carboy aging, no oak). Both wines are good (at the 2.5 year mark), but most people prefer the heavy press

My 2020 first run -- Meritage (Merlot + Bordeaux grapes, free run and very light press) and Meritage Plus (Merlot + Zinfandel +Bordeaux grapes, hard press) are distinctly different, more so than the addition of Zin to the second. Both are very good in their own way.

My suggestion is to segregate the free run and light press from the hard press. Age them separately and decide what to do later. It's common to blend at least some of the hard pressings into free run and/or light pressings for additional body.