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Would you consider bench trials and a small treatment of copper sulfate?
Critical look at each other's wine
- Thread starter NorCal
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We have some in route to do just that. I would avoid using this unless there was no option, but it would also serve to confirm the problem.
4score
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I called one lab (Lodi Labs) and was told they did not have a formal chemical test for either TCA or H2S. They recommended that we bring a 100 ml sample to them and they would gladly perform a smell test. I guess they are highly trained and have the experience to accurately label the problem we are having. Subsequently, I think we are thinking it's mild H2S. The copper sulfate test should confirm that presumption.
So, what are some causes of H2S in a new barrel?
So, what are some causes of H2S in a new barrel?
4score
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I did great with the comments I received from Norcal. I think it was spot on and confirmed what I was observing. For my Barbera, it came down to the nose and trying to identify if it was "off" (we both agree it was), what it was smelling like (we both agreed it was musty/funky and hiding the fruit nose). This led to trying to understand what it could be and a course of action to correct this batch as well as a course of action to prevent repeating this. We thought it may have been TCA from using chlorine water in the barrel prep, but we now think it's mild H2S. We will try to confirm this with some copper sulfate testing soon.
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I figure if I'm not open to negative feedback, it limits my ability to improve. I solicited feedback on my wine from no less than 4 very respected commercial winemakers on my first vintage. My Zin had faults, which most picked out (watered back, stuck fermentation). The cab franc received good feedback, but even if they say it's good, I ask them what are you getting that makes it good and what could be done to improve it?
Airing my dirty laundry can be difficult, but it is a lot easier to handle than 60 gallons of bad wine.
joeswine
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norcal
sometimes it is easier to correct a flaw while it's still In the works as apposed to when it's all said and done. I agree with you on that, nothing worse then having to dump wine no matter how much it is, it's the time and effort that's involved as well as cost an a certain amount of pride ,the best results come from blind wine tastings and people who are not just your friends.
sometimes it is easier to correct a flaw while it's still In the works as apposed to when it's all said and done. I agree with you on that, nothing worse then having to dump wine no matter how much it is, it's the time and effort that's involved as well as cost an a certain amount of pride ,the best results come from blind wine tastings and people who are not just your friends.
stickman
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There is a fairly good procedure for sulfide detection bench trials located at this link.
http://www.gusmerenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Sulfide-Detection-Kit-Instructions1.pdf
Maybe you indicated in another thread, but have these wines gone through ML and, if so, were they racked after ML? H2S is tricky and most of us would agree that nutrients are a major factor, and may be the main cause, as it is almost impossible to get the nutrient and vitamin level right without an initial analysis. The fact that you're having the issue in the barrel and not in carboy suggests volume may be contributing. Even though the barrel provides some oxygen, wines will be more reductive in larger volume containers, especially when oak is contributing tannins that are also oxygen reactive.
I think during the first couple of months after fermentation it is best to get a red wine off of sediment if off odors are detected. Although some winemakers would say that a faint funk in a heavy red, that's going to age for two years in barrel, is not a problem as the compounds combine over time and provide interesting components to the finished wine.
http://www.gusmerenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Sulfide-Detection-Kit-Instructions1.pdf
Maybe you indicated in another thread, but have these wines gone through ML and, if so, were they racked after ML? H2S is tricky and most of us would agree that nutrients are a major factor, and may be the main cause, as it is almost impossible to get the nutrient and vitamin level right without an initial analysis. The fact that you're having the issue in the barrel and not in carboy suggests volume may be contributing. Even though the barrel provides some oxygen, wines will be more reductive in larger volume containers, especially when oak is contributing tannins that are also oxygen reactive.
I think during the first couple of months after fermentation it is best to get a red wine off of sediment if off odors are detected. Although some winemakers would say that a faint funk in a heavy red, that's going to age for two years in barrel, is not a problem as the compounds combine over time and provide interesting components to the finished wine.
Hey Stick, Ferm K was added at first sign of fermentation and the second 50% addition at 1/3 fermentation complete. The wine was pressed, settled for 24 hours, transferred to a barrel and mlf'd. Once mlf'd tested complete, it was racked, barrel cleaned and the SO2 was added. Barrel has been stored cold and topped, tested and additions made every 6 weeks.
The seasoned winemaker that was kind enough to come over and smell the barrel, wine and give it a taste said not to worry about it, it will blow off, which has been my experience as previously noted. However, we will run some copper sulfate trials this weekend to confirm that this us what we are dealing with.
The seasoned winemaker that was kind enough to come over and smell the barrel, wine and give it a taste said not to worry about it, it will blow off, which has been my experience as previously noted. However, we will run some copper sulfate trials this weekend to confirm that this us what we are dealing with.
The cu test provided definitive results; night and day difference. Did a blind test with my wife, but I knew it wasn't necessary. I'm embarrassed that I have been living with / letting it go this long. I guess the good news is that the cu had such a profound benefit, it is a problem that can be fixed with the correct handling.
To make sure I understand what is going on; H2S was (most likely) a bi-product from the yeast during fermentation, which now exists as a compound in the wine. Left alone, it can form other compounds, which cannot be treated. CU will cause the H2S to precipitate out.
So, H2S is not biological, where we have to kill something and would require the barrels to be treated, rather, these are compounds suspended in the wine that need to be removed. If done correctly and the treated wine put back into the rinsed barrel, the H2S is not something that will reappear, as there is not a source generating new H2S. Did I get this right?
To make sure I understand what is going on; H2S was (most likely) a bi-product from the yeast during fermentation, which now exists as a compound in the wine. Left alone, it can form other compounds, which cannot be treated. CU will cause the H2S to precipitate out.
So, H2S is not biological, where we have to kill something and would require the barrels to be treated, rather, these are compounds suspended in the wine that need to be removed. If done correctly and the treated wine put back into the rinsed barrel, the H2S is not something that will reappear, as there is not a source generating new H2S. Did I get this right?
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As long as fermentation has completed (which it has) then you should not get any more forming in your barrel. I have to compliment you on your determination to get to the root of the problem and take steps to correct it without "shooting from the hip" taking guesses as to the cause of the stinkiness.
Yes, As long as you get on it sooner rather than later it is completely treatable. Get some Reduless ASAP if you haven't already. I have used it twice for just this type of problem (slight H2S odor) and added the minimum dose for 3 days and racked off and it was like a new wine. Great stuff.
I placed my order for Reduless. However, I would like to run a CU test to understand what level of CU it will take to resolve the issue. What I cannot find is a good chart that shows how much to dilute the 1% CU and add to the sample and then working back to the larger volumes of wine. I created the below excel chart, but it differs from other published work by a factor of five and I can't figure out why. Anyone care to show me my error?
Edited: removed chart to be sure nobody used the incorrect info.
Edited: removed chart to be sure nobody used the incorrect info.
Last edited:
I believe the 1% solution is a weight/volume percentage. Weight/volume is not the same as ppm (due to differing atomic weight of water and copper sulfate).
See point #5 in this document: https://www.extension.iastate.edu/wine/sites/www.extension.iastate.edu/files/wine/coppersulfatetrial1.pdf
Thanks Sour.
Also found this.
Note: copper calculations are based on the fact that copper is about 25% of cupric sulfate penta-hydrate, by weight.
Also found this.
Note: copper calculations are based on the fact that copper is about 25% of cupric sulfate penta-hydrate, by weight.
I added .5 g per gallon of Reduless to both of my small barrels tonight. I had a glass with around 100ml of wine that I put the residual Reduless in. I swear it smells better already, but it could just be my wishful mind playing tricks on me.
stickman
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Glad to hear it's going well, I don't think it's your mind, copper does react fast. At some future point, it may be interesting to compare this wine to some from the carboy that didn't require the copper treatment.
Hey Stick, the Carboy of Barbera is now officially topping wine for the barrels. The good news is that the will probably be the last time I rack these barrels, except for the day of bottling.
Thought it would be fun to do a look back. There were no lingering h2s affects. The Mourvèdre turned out to be the best wine I've ever made, really enjoying it and it will be entered in the state fair next year. The Zin is solid, enjoyed by most all, but not my favorite. The Barbera was the biggest disappointment. I left it in the 30 gallon French oak barrel too long and got overoaked. The good news is that the wood has started to integrate and I think it will only get better. All in all, it was a season that had its struggles, but I would feel good about putting a bottle in front of anyone.
