Other EC-1118 is a killer ...

[winemaker81]

I looked up info about EC-1118 because of something I read in another thread, and found the Lallemand page:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-ec-1118/
Note that in section Oenological Properties, it reads: Competitive killer factor: yes

Folks have posted that some kits include packets of EC-1118 plus another yeast, with the intention that both are used. It appears that co-inoculating with EC-1118 is a waste of yeast, as it's likely to kill all competitors. If I purchased a kit with 2 yeasts, I'd not use the EC-1118 unless the ferment stuck.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I looked up info about EC-1118 because of something I read in another thread, and found the Lallemand page:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-ec-1118/
Note that in section Oenological Properties, it reads: Competitive killer factor: yes

Folks have posted that some kits include packets of EC-1118 plus another yeast, with the intention that both are used. It appears that co-inoculating with EC-1118 is a waste of yeast, as it's likely to kill all competitors. If I purchased a kit with 2 yeasts, I'd not use the EC-1118 unless the ferment stuck.

The Death Star of Yeasts!

 

[winemaker81]

The Death Star of Yeasts!

Not that powerful. Darth Yeast!

 

[Ohio Bob]

I wonder if the second yeast is meant as food for the EC-1118?

 

[BigDaveK]

That's interesting!
I needed more. Turns out there are 4 types of "Kill factor":

https://pricklycider.com/2020/12/19/yeast-killer-factor/

 

[cmason1957]

When I have gotten two yeasts in a kit, I have put the none Ec-1118 in first. Then if there are any signs of a slow down or at about 1.010, I add the Ec-1118. And sometimes I forget to add it in.

 

[BigDaveK]

This is all really interesting!
Apparently the food industry uses killer yeast to "dispatch" harmful yeast in many areas, not just wine making.
Yeast are extraordinary little workhorses and I'm already following too many rabbit holes Perhaps in the future.

 

[wineview]

I looked up info about EC-1118 because of something I read in another thread, and found the Lallemand page:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-ec-1118/
Note that in section Oenological Properties, it reads: Competitive killer factor: yes

Folks have posted that some kits include packets of EC-1118 plus another yeast, with the intention that both are used. It appears that co-inoculating with EC-1118 is a waste of yeast, as it's likely to kill all competitors. If I purchased a kit with 2 yeasts, I'd not use the EC-1118 unless the ferment stuck.

My experience is that EC-1118 is a rescue yeast. If you use at the start of your ferment, it will strip everything from a red wine. However, I have had success with this strain in a Pinot Grigio.

 

[Noontime]

My experience is that EC-1118 is a rescue yeast. If you use at the start of your ferment, it will strip everything from a red wine. However, I have had success with this strain in a Pinot Grigio.

I agree it CAN strip some volatile compounds, but only if you ferment too hot. If you control the temp it's just a neutral yeast, that's going to provide a very robust fermentation with little risk of other organisms joining the party.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I looked up info about EC-1118 because of something I read in another thread, and found the Lallemand page:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-ec-1118/
Note that in section Oenological Properties, it reads: Competitive killer factor: yes

Folks have posted that some kits include packets of EC-1118 plus another yeast, with the intention that both are used. It appears that co-inoculating with EC-1118 is a waste of yeast, as it's likely to kill all competitors. If I purchased a kit with 2 yeasts, I'd not use the EC-1118 unless the ferment stuck.

Yeah it does kill sensitive strains of yeast. But they have to be sensitive and if they aren’t then another strain can still outcompete 1118

 

[winemaker81]

Yeah it does kill sensitive strains of yeast. But they have to be sensitive and if they aren’t then another strain can still outcompete 1118

True. However, I'd still add only 1 yeast to a 23 liter batch. Based upon the stats for EC-1118, I'm not seeing value in adding both -- unless the ferment sticks.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

True. However, I'd still add only 1 yeast to a 23 liter batch. Based upon the stats for EC-1118, I'm not seeing value in adding both -- unless the ferment sticks.

I keep it around to finish out a wine as towards the end of every ferment both commercially and home winemaking wise I add fresh yeast to finish it as yeast gets stressed towards the end of fermentation.

 

[winemaker81]

I keep it around to finish out a wine as towards the end of every ferment both commercially and home winemaking wise I add fresh yeast to finish it as yeast gets stressed towards the end of fermentation.

Really? What ABV are you making? Generally speaking, the reds I make range from 12.5% to 14.5%, and the yeast I use have no problem fermenting dry.

My 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel finished around 15.7% ABV, and I'll not make that mistake again. Both are good, except for being out of balance ABV-wise. If I could turn back time, I'd water back to < 15%.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Really? What ABV are you making? Generally speaking, the reds I make range from 12.5% to 14.5%, and the yeast I use have no problem fermenting dry.

My 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel finished around 15.7% ABV, and I'll not make that mistake again. Both are good, except for being out of balance ABV-wise. If I could turn back time, I'd water back to < 15%.

It’s actually a practice I learned at the first winery I ever worked at, my boss at that time said that basically once you hit halfway into a fermentation your not going to gain any more flavors or aromas from the yeast/fermentation past that point and that they can get stressed out by increasing levels of alcohol and produce off flavors so he recommended and practiced adding fresh yeast at the halfway point and letting that finish the fermentation. Just something I picked up at that time that I have continued.

The wines he was making were rarely under 15% even for white wines and a good many were even 16% plus. A lot of the fermentations I work with exceed 15-16% quite regularly.

 

[SVEN]

Do you add Fermx yeast nutrient along with the additional yeast you add half way through the primary?

 

[winemaker81]

The wines he was making were rarely under 15% even for white wines and a good many were even 16% plus. A lot of the fermentations I work with exceed 15-16% quite regularly.

For that range of ABV, the practice makes sense.

 

[Handy Turnip]

I looked up info about EC-1118 because of something I read in another thread, and found the Lallemand page:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalvin-ec-1118/
Note that in section Oenological Properties, it reads: Competitive killer factor: yes

Folks have posted that some kits include packets of EC-1118 plus another yeast, with the intention that both are used. It appears that co-inoculating with EC-1118 is a waste of yeast, as it's likely to kill all competitors. If I purchased a kit with 2 yeasts, I'd not use the EC-1118 unless the ferment stuck.

Really interesting - although a couple of thoughts come to mind. For better quality winexpert whites, the second yeast added is normally (in my experience) K1-V1116 which is also listed as a competitive killer of yes. So which wins?

Also if the standard yeast for winexpert whites is EC1118 - why include another yeast at all, that's just wasting money. Which makes me think it must do something (especially as they are more likely to be included in the higher end kits)

 

[Ohio Bob]

Could be two reasons...
1. Kits are successful, and will be purchased again, if the fermentation completes. If you bought a wine kit and it turned to vinegar, or spoiled, would you ever, in honesty, buy another? Highly reliable yeast ensures you have a better than average chance for success.
2. Rather than include a yeast nutrient that should be added at approximately 1/3 sugar consumption, perhaps the second yeast packet is meant to be the nutrient for the first, or maybe the first is meant to be the nutrient for the second. Even if added at the “incorrect” point in the fermentation, it can’t really hurt the final product, and ensures a totally fermented wine.

 

[winemaker81]

I contacted Winexpert, asking why 2 yeast are added. I usually get a reply back within a few days, although the holidays may delay that.

 

[Handy Turnip]

@Ohio Bob interesting point on it acting as a nutrient for the first?
But I still don't get point 1 - they use EC-1118 for that reason (rather than say a more interesting yeast) as a fermentation guarantee. And the majority of whites only have EC-1118 (and I've never had a failed fermentation using just that). Adding an extra yeast for some kits must be for a reason to do with enhancing the flavour or quality.

@winemaker81 it'll be fascinating to see what they say, as something doesn't quite add up