WineXpert Eclipse Yeast

[ibglowin]

Received my Eclipse kits today from Doug at Brew and Wine Supply (thanks Doug for the super fast shipping!)

I peeked into the Yakima Valley Pinot Gris and noticed that it came with 2 packages of yeast. One Ec1118 and then a package V1116 as well.

I have seen two packages come before and you added both but they were always the same yeast so not sure if I got a mixed pair of yeast.

I can't seem to find anything in the instructions (included or online) about a variation of yeast.

I do see this blurb:

A Dual Yeast Process:

Eclipse uses a 2 yeast process, the first is the work horse stage to initiate the yeast process. The second yeast refines and delivers optimal fruit and flavor character of the wine. Some of the yeast formulas have been changed to achieve the 2 stage process. What that means is, a more refined way of fermentation that improves the aromas and taste of the wine.

It almost sounds like your supposed to start off with one yeast then add another which is totally off the wall with normal winemaking practices namely you don't ever blend yeast into a single fermentation. Its OK to ferment separately and then blend the finished wines together.

I tried to call the WE 800 number and got a recording that the number was not available in this part of the country, not sure if they think New Mexico is (old) Mexico or what. Tried the web contact form, filled it out and when submitting the form got an ERROR: You do not have sufficient privileges to access this page response......

So at this point I am hoping somebody else has come across this already and can supply some additional info.

 

[BobF]

I was able to submit the question "How/when to add the two different yeasts?" on their web site.

I'll let you know if/when I get a response.

 

[ibglowin]

Cool, thanks Bob.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

I'll try to give them a call in the morning too. Very interesting...????? (in my best Artie Johnson accent)

(thanks Doug for the super fast shipping!)

You're welcome, I try to get everything out the same day I get the order. glad to have another happy customer!!!

 

[BobF]

Here's the response, Mike:
========================

Hello,
Add both yeast to the batch day 1.

Cheers,
Linda Kazakoff
Customer Service
Winexpert
1622 Kebet Way
Port Coquitlam, B.C. V3C 5W9
Canada
604-941-5588 Ext 241
888-424-4888
========================

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 4:58 PM
To: Winexpert Customer Service
Subject: Winexpert Inquiry

A form submission has been received from http://www.winexpert.com/contact-us

NAME: Bob

STATEPROV: Missouri

COUNTRY: United States

MESSAGE: My Eclipse Yakima Valley Pinot Gris kit has both 1118 and 1116 yeasts. When/how are these supposed to be added?

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks Bob!

 

[Pumpkinman]

I've been blending yeasts, I haven't added a full packet of each, I usually take the two that I select based on the characteristics I would like to bring out and weigh out 2.5 to 3 grams each, I re-hydrate them both and ferment.
I guess it wasn't a crazy idea....lol

 

[ibglowin]

What usually happens is one or the other yeast is the stronger of the two and basically kills off the other (think survival of the fittest at the microbial level) and you really are not getting the best of two yeast like you think you are or if you had fermented separately and blended the wines back together afterwards.

 

[rjb222]

I would like to find the science behind the two yeast method when adding them both at the beginning. Letting a wild yeast develop complexity then finish with a known yeast for the character has been done for years. The starting of the EC 1118 must be quicker than the K1V-1116 unless I am wrong which is possible the K designates the yeast as a killer yeast to other yeasts so it should kill off the EC-1118 in theory. Research needed for sure.

 

[BobF]

I'm not sure if one yeast kills another. Obviously, the more aggressive yeast will dominate and ultimately have a greater population/contribution.

This should be easy to test with three one gallon batches. Do one each of two different yeasts and one with the two combined. Compare the results.

I might do this when I get bored enough

 

[ibglowin]

I didn't mean to imply that one yeast would actually "kill" the other, just that one of them is going to win the battle to consume sugar and convert to EEOH over the other. So you won't get equal contribution from both yeast. Your going to get a big contribution from one and very little from the other. This is the reason that normally you ferment sperately and combine down the road.

 

[BobF]

I didn't think you were being literal, Mike. I wish I could think of a way to estimate proportions of final contributions.

 

[BobF]

OK - Just dusted myself off after a trip down the yeast killer/competitive factor rabbit hole.

Apparently, an "active competitive factor" means a particular yeast is a 'killer' yeast. Lallemand assigns the values "active", "sensitive" and "neutral" to the competitive factor attribute of their yeasts.

According to the chart (link below), 1118 and 1116 are both 'killer' yeasts. Both are also considered rapid starters, so it should be an interesting battle over resources during ferment!!

http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_chart.php

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks for the link Bob! I am thinking when I do get around to pitching the yeast on this guy I may just forget the EC1118 and go with just the V1116. It sounds like a better yeast for white wines over EC1118.

Lalvin V1116 (K1)™:

The secure choice for light, fresh, crisp whites Lalvin V1116 (K1) was isolated in 1972 by Pierre Barre of the INRA Montpellier. V1116 (K1) tends to express the freshness of white grape varieties. Natural fresh fruit aromas are retained for longer, compared to wines fermented with standard yeast (such as Prise de Mousse). When fermented at low temperatures (below 16°C) and with the right addition of nutrients V1116 (K1) is one of the more flowery ester producers (isoamyl acetate, hexyl acetate and phenyl ethyl acetate). These esters bring fresh floral aromas to neutral varieties or high-yield grapes. Among the high ester producers, V1116 (K1) is the most resistant to difficult fermentation conditions, such as low turbidity, low temperature and low fatty acid content. V1116 (K1) is recommended for the fermentation of icewines. It can also be used for rosé or basic red wines.

 

[BobF]

Sounds like a good plan!

 

[SouthernChemist]

Based on the quote below (from Quality and Ale Supply's website regarding the Eclipse line of kits), it would seem to be that EC-1118 is the more dominant yeast as far as fermentation is concerned but enough K1V-1116 is propagated to take advantage of its higher ester formation (among other secondary metabolites). I assume they bench tested this before putting out the kit line, so maybe there is a consistent product result versus just using EC-1118 or K1V-1116 alone.

There is the interesting point of temperature to consider. A yeast that produces a higher degree of esters or aromatics would benefit from a lower fermentation temperature, and 16 degrees Celsius is 60 degrees Fahrenheit. It looks like the Eclipse line instructions say to keep the fermentation at 72-75 degrees, however.

Then again, they're going after a consistent product, and it wouldn't surprise me if EC-1118 is included merely to make sure no one has any issues with fermentation and the kit is 'made'. Maybe they could not get K1V-1116 alone to give a consistent product for their standards.

What is dual yeast activity?

This is a two yeast process for the New Zealand Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc and Washington Yakima Valley Pinot Gris that ensures outstanding aromatics for both wine styles. The first yeast (EC-118) is the work horse of yeasts to get the wine going while the second yeast (K1V-1116) refines and optimizes either the fruit or floral characteristics of the wine.

http://www.homebrewit.com/winexpert-eclipse-wine-making-kits.php

 

[grapeman]

The K1V-1116 definitely is friendlier on volatile esters than 1118. The 1118 is so vigorous that it blows the esters away and you get a much flatter wine. I prefer others to the K1V-1116 though as that one is still pretty vigorous and can make way too strong of alchohol. One of them is the ICV-D47 for instance which is much gentler on and enhances the esters more.

 

[tonyt]

Received my Eclipse kits today from Doug at Brew and Wine Supply (thanks Doug for the super fast shipping!)

I peeked into the Yakima Valley Pinot Gris and noticed that it came with 2 packages of yeast. One Ec1118 and then a package V1116 as well.

I have seen two packages come before and you added both but they were always the same yeast so not sure if I got a mixed pair of yeast.

I can't seem to find anything in the instructions (included or online) about a variation of yeast.

I do see this blurb:

A Dual Yeast Process:
I tried to call the WE 800 number and got a recording that the number was not available in this part of the country, not sure if they think New Mexico is (old) Mexico or what. Tried the web contact form, filled it out and when submitting the form got an ERROR: You do not have sufficient privileges to access this page response....

Tim V is good about answering PM on the other forum.

 

[ibglowin]

I actually did PM him 2 days ago. Nothing yet......

 

[robie]

I forget the term for it, but the specs for each yeast generally lets you know if they can co-exist with other yeast. In most cases, they can't.

I believe they want the characteristics of the EC-1116, but since they kit is guaranteed, they throw in the mack truck yeast - EC-1118. It doesn't make much sense to me.

I seriously question whether one could tell the difference between a batch with just EC-1118 and a separate batch with the mixed yeast.