Elderberry concentrate

[hounddawg]

For an update on the Juices from Home Winery Supply, I just got the 1/2 gallon bottles I ordered. They came pretty quick and were well packaged. I got 1 each of Blueberry, Apricot, Cranberry, and Passion Fruit.

Except for the type of juice, price, and lot numbers, the labels were identical:

Makes 5 Gallons
Keep refrigerated

Contains fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape
extract & sulphur dioxide.
Main contain live active cultures

hum, i think the last i got was a cut out with the name of what flavor , tapped to the 1/2 gal milk jug,
Dawg

 

[Scooter68]

For an update on the Juices from Home Winery Supply, I just got the 1/2 gallon bottles I ordered. They came pretty quick and were well packaged. I got 1 each of Blueberry, Apricot, Cranberry, and Passion Fruit.

Except for the type of juice, price, and lot numbers, the labels were identical:

Makes 5 Gallons
Keep refrigerated

Contains fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape
extract & sulphur dioxide.
Main contain live active cultures

Thanks for the update. According to UPS my 2 x 1/2 gallon bottles of Black Raspberry should arrive tomorrow. Unfortunately my inclination is that unless these taste utterly fantastic, I will not be ordering from them again. I'm going to attach two labels from other wine base makers for comparison. These may not give percentages of what's in them but in most every instance I've seen the conventional process is that you put the ingredients in the order of percentage in the product from most to least. The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer.

 

[hounddawg]

Thanks for the update. According to UPS my 2 x 1/2 gallon bottles of Black Raspberry should arrive tomorrow. Unfortunately my inclination is that unless these taste utterly fantastic, I will not be ordering from them again. I'm going to attach two labels from other wine base makers for comparison. These may not give percentages of what's in them but in most every instance I've seen the conventional process is that you put the ingredients in the order of percentage in the product from most to least. The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer. View attachment 66046

well they use't to be single juice, but now they ain't,, that being said i have a 2 part blackberry/1 part elderberry, a blueberry/black raspberry,tart cherry, all of which is good, but i am highly upset they did not have the nerve to label the changes, but vintners harvest still can not hold a light to H.W. to me anyway..
Dawg

 

[reeflections]

...The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer.

Exactly the way it seemed to me. We'll see how it tastes when reconstituted.

 

[Yooper🍷]

Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast.

Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.

Next day Sg was at 1.03 and added another 1 1/2 lb of invertsugar.

Next day had. An off smell andSg was down to 1.01 so I added another 1 1/2 lb invert sugar and tsp if yeast neut. off smell disappeared in 2 hours. Also lowered temp to 68.

next day SG back down to 1.01 Added 1 lb invert sugar which brought Sg back up to 1.02
Strained out grapes and blueberrys

Next daySG back down to 1.01 added enough invert sugar to bring SG to 1.03 and next two days still actively fermenting at 1.02 so I racked into a carboy to let it finish. Releasing gas through air lock every 2 seconds. But I tasted it - nice residual sweetness and didn’t taste like rocket fuel but warmed you all the way down like brandy does. I think I accomplished what I set out to do.

 

[hounddawg]

Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast.

Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.

Next day Sg was at 1.03 and added another 1 1/2 lb of invertsugar.

Next day had. An off smell andSg was down to 1.01 so I added another 1 1/2 lb invert sugar and tsp if yeast neut. off smell disappeared in 2 hours. Also lowered temp to 68.

next day SG back down to 1.01 Added 1 lb invert sugar which brought Sg back up to 1.02
Strained out grapes and blueberrys

Next daySG back down to 1.01 added enough invert sugar to bring SG to 1.03 and next two days still actively fermenting at 1.02 so I racked into a carboy to let it finish. Releasing gas through air lock every 2 seconds. But I tasted it - nice residual sweetness and didn’t taste like rocket fuel but warmed you all the way down like brandy does. I think I accomplished what I set out to do.

he-he, no i think we high jacked this thread, llol sorry,
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast.

Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.

Next day Sg was at 1.03 and added another 1 1/2 lb of invertsugar.

Next day had. An off smell andSg was down to 1.01 so I added another 1 1/2 lb invert sugar and tsp if yeast neut. off smell disappeared in 2 hours. Also lowered temp to 68.

next day SG back down to 1.01 Added 1 lb invert sugar which brought Sg back up to 1.02
Strained out grapes and blueberrys

Next daySG back down to 1.01 added enough invert sugar to bring SG to 1.03 and next two days still actively fermenting at 1.02 so I racked into a carboy to let it finish. Releasing gas through air lock every 2 seconds. But I tasted it - nice residual sweetness and didn’t taste like rocket fuel but warmed you all the way down like brandy does. I think I accomplished what I set out to do.

i do several fairly high ABV's, on my country wines i take my SSG to 1.040, using EC-1118 yeast, i add yeast energizer an yeast nutrient an pectic enzyme , now for elderberry i like at least 5 lbs to a gallon, every time i get to say around SG 1.020 i re boost to SG 1.040 adding , i use dry sugar, if you stir with a drill then no prob, if not use a little of your wine warm it up just a little and mix 2 parts sugar to 1 part wine, then use that simple sugar to raise your SG, with out diluting you wine, but you sound like you got a good handle on your style, now just my personal presence with elderberry it must be bulk aged to be really good, just my 2 cents,,
Dawg

 

[Scooter68]

In fairness to all - The original post was asking about a source of elderberry concentrate more so than the making of an elderberry wine. So all-in-all the actual subject was sources of concentrates and in particular Elderberry - no high-jacking committed.

Right now sources seem to be changing and as we have apparently learned, one source appears to have cut corners without announcing that they did so.

When we discuss sources - such discussions are pretty significant.

Glad your elderberry Blueberry blend wine turned out well.

 

[winemaker81]

If the wine comes out tasting good, it doesn't matter.

A couple of years ago I made an impulse purchase, a gallon of Vintner's Best elderberry. I started the wine and then read the label. -- first item on the list was corn syrup, second was apple juice, elderberry was down the list.

I got REALLY irritated. Not at the vendor, but at myself for not reading the label.

Now? Everyone who tastes it, loves it. Enough so there's only a couple of bottles left. [I'm thinking of making more as my son's girlfriend and her mom love it. It's good to establish a positive relationship with the in-laws!]

There is no problem, other than in my own mind. While I swore I'd not buy their product again ... let's be honest -- the vendor did not lie. They were totally above board and honest.

The point to my story (yes, I've come to the end) is that if the final result is good, it's good.

That said, I appreciate @hounddawg's irritation with an ingredient list that is inaccurate. That would steer me away from that vendor -- if they're lying about what the real ingredients are, what else are they lying about?

 

[Scooter68]

Here's the actual label and receipt for my purchase received today. Yeah, that's too vague for me. It's going to have to be very impressive to buy again. Especially if their site had NO content information. They can change it whenever and you won't know. I'm hoping it turns out well and I have some home grown Triple berry wine to compare it to - (BlackRaspberry, Red Raspberry, BlackBerry (all home grown and wild berries except for about 1.5 lbs which are the Red Raspberries.) The triple berry is potent stuff with about 7-8lbs for the 1 gallon batch.

 

[Scooter68]

Ok since this thread started off discussing sources of juice I believe this comment is appropriate. Today my 3 gallon batch of Blackberry wine from a 96 oz can of Vintners Harvest (VH) had an SG reading of 1.004. So it's essentially finished but for another day or two. FLAVOR - yup Dawg you got it. It just doesn't compare to my homegrown blackberry wine. I have had good batches of Black Currant, and Plum but not having made any of those wines from pure fruit home-grown or orchard source, I cannot do a full up comparison. This Blackberry that is basically finished has enough sweetness at 1.004 that I believe I can judge it fairly. It's good, but not nearly as good as our wild blackberry wine.
So I'll lower my flag and stop waving it for that brand of juice. Sigh. Guess I'll have to look for another source of black currant juice cause I love that flavor even the VH brand juice produced a good wine but... what am I missing? I don't know.... yet.

 

[hounddawg]

A couple of years ago I made an impulse purchase, a gallon of Vintner's Best elderberry. I started the wine and then read the label. -- first item on the list was corn syrup, second was apple juice, elderberry was down the list.

I got REALLY irritated. Not at the vendor, but at myself for not reading the label.

Now? Everyone who tastes it, loves it. Enough so there's only a couple of bottles left. [I'm thinking of making more as my son's girlfriend and her mom love it. It's good to establish a positive relationship with the in-laws!]

There is no problem, other than in my own mind. While I swore I'd not buy their product again ... let's be honest -- the vendor did not lie. They were totally above board and honest.

The point to my story (yes, I've come to the end) is that if the final result is good, it's good.

That said, I appreciate @hounddawg's irritation with an ingredient list that is inaccurate. That would steer me away from that vendor -- if they're lying about what the real ingredients are, what else are they lying about?

come to find out thru @dralarms , the original man that i talked to back when i started buying it, and now their are 2 different men running it, but the label still do list nothing but the concentrate you order, i noticed here while back , that they had always sold 53 kinds of concentrate, but now years later and the older man retired now they sell 55 kinds of concentrate.
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

Here's the actual label and receipt for my purchase received today. Yeah, that's too vague for me. It's going to have to be very impressive to buy again. Especially if their site had NO content information. They can change it whenever and you won't know. I'm hoping it turns out well and I have some home grown Triple berry wine to compare it to - (BlackRaspberry, Red Raspberry, BlackBerry (all home grown and wild berries except for about 1.5 lbs which are the Red Raspberries.) The triple berry is potent stuff with about 7-8lbs for the 1 gallon batch.


View attachment 66068

is that your h.w. concentrate? mine only said black raspberry, blackberry, or sour cherry, and was taped on with clear tape.
Dawg

 

[Scooter68]

I suppose that it would be worthwhile for someone who is in the area and has done a bit of business with this company, to contact the folks at Homewinery personally and just discuss how their site and labels, while not misleading, are certainly not the most helpful. All they would have to do is to put on their site and their labels a CLEAR description of what they are selling. The current label is just very confusing and really leaves one with more questions than answers. I'm not saying this is a accurate label for what I bought (Black Raspberry Concentrate) but at least if the label followed the conventions of order of content it would provide us some clarity:
Clear description - Ingredients: Grape Juice, Black Raspberry juice, Sulfur Dioxide
(By convention this type of label states that there is more Grape Juice than Black Raspberry juice in the product.)

Current description: Contains Fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape extract & sulphur dioxide
(Does it actually contain ANY Black Raspberry juice? One could defend a statement that actually it does NOT contain ANY Black Raspberry juice based on what is written and in fact if you notice the second item after "contains" is fruit/grape extract it could in fact be exactly a highly processed Black Raspberry extract and NOT a concentrated "Juice" in traditional terms - Extracts can have more than just water removed from the original item)

(This is on the actual and only label of the product I bought)




Sorry if this sounds like a rant but these days there are many out there literally ripping people off with vague information about their "products." This company could help themselves and all home wine makers with a little clarity.

And as I know people like to get technical from time to time - read these definitions of "Extract" carefully It leaves a door open for a lot of different interpretations The purple highlighting is mine to make it easier to focus.:

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

extract verb

ex·tract | \ ik-ˈstrakt

, usually in sense 5 ˈek-ˌstrakt \
extracted; extracting; extracts

Definition of extract

Transitive verb

1a : to draw forth (as by research) extract data
b : to pull or take out forcibly extracted a wisdom tooth
c : to obtain by much effort from someone unwilling extracted a confession
2a : to withdraw (something, such as a juice or a constituent element) by physical or chemical process
b : to treat with a solvent so as to remove a soluble substance
3 : to separate (a metal) from an ore
4 : to determine (a mathematical root) by calculation
5 : to select (excerpts) and copy out or cite

extract noun

ex·tract | \ ˈek-ˌstrakt

1 : a selection from a writing or discourse : excerpt
2 : a product (such as an essence or concentrate) prepared by extracting especially : a solution (as in alcohol) of essential constituents of a complex material (such as meat or an aromatic plant)

 

[winemaker81]

Sorry if this sounds like a rant

Nope, I don't see a rant. You're asking for truth in advertising, which IMO is fair.

 

[hounddawg]

I suppose that it would be worthwhile for someone who is in the area and has done a bit of business with this company, to contact the folks at Homewinery personally and just discuss how their site and labels, while not misleading, are certainly not the most helpful. All they would have to do is to put on their site and their labels a CLEAR description of what they are selling. The current label is just very confusing and really leaves one with more questions than answers. I'm not saying this is a accurate label for what I bought (Black Raspberry Concentrate) but at least if the label followed the conventions of order of content it would provide us some clarity:
Clear description - Ingredients: Grape Juice, Black Raspberry juice, Sulfur Dioxide
(By convention this type of label states that there is more Grape Juice than Black Raspberry juice in the product.)

Current description: Contains Fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape extract & sulphur dioxide
(Does it actually contain ANY Black Raspberry juice? One could defend a statement that actually it does NOT contain ANY Black Raspberry juice based on what is written and in fact if you notice the second item after "contains" is fruit/grape extract it could in fact be exactly a highly processed Black Raspberry extract and NOT a concentrated "Juice" in traditional terms - Extracts can have more than just water removed from the original item)

(This is on the actual and only label of the product I bought)
View attachment 66110



Sorry if this sounds like a rant but these days there are many out there literally ripping people off with vague information about their "products." This company could help themselves and all home wine makers with a little clarity.

And as I know people like to get technical from time to time - read these definitions of "Extract" carefully It leaves a door open for a lot of different interpretations The purple highlighting is mine to make it easier to focus.:

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

extract verb

ex·tract | \ ik-ˈstrakt

, usually in sense 5 ˈek-ˌstrakt \
extracted; extracting; extracts

Definition of extract

Transitive verb

1a : to draw forth (as by research) extract data
b : to pull or take out forcibly extracted a wisdom tooth
c : to obtain by much effort from someone unwilling extracted a confession
2a : to withdraw (something, such as a juice or a constituent element) by physical or chemical process
b : to treat with a solvent so as to remove a soluble substance
3 : to separate (a metal) from an ore
4 : to determine (a mathematical root) by calculation
5 : to select (excerpts) and copy out or cite

extract noun

ex·tract | \ ˈek-ˌstrakt

1 : a selection from a writing or discourse : excerpt
2 : a product (such as an essence or concentrate) prepared by extracting especially : a solution (as in alcohol) of essential constituents of a complex material (such as meat or an aromatic plant)

none of mine every had that on the label, all my labels just said the name of the fruit or berry, but i just run outta the old, i kept spares in the freezer, if you find a good single fruit/berry concentrate and let me know, I'll do likewise,,,,
Dawg

 

[FTC Wines]

Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy

 

[hounddawg]

Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy

give it 3 more years, it is only warming up now, the longer you age elderberry the better it gets, same for blackberry,,,,
Dawg

 

[Scooter68]

Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy

It's all about what YOU like. If you are happy then, that's what matters to you.

The problem some of us are having is that we really don't know what we are getting. It could be anything from a conentrate honest grape juice and "X" juice (X being the name of the juice on the label) or it could be Grape Juice and a highly processed extract of the fruit on the label. (Meaning a good bit of chemistry and processing that leaves behind some good natural elements and adds in some not so good chemicals. We just don't know what is actually in there due to the vague label on the containers and NO ingredients list on their site. These days I'm a bit surprised that they can get away with that in the state of Michigan or any state in this country.

 

[reeflections]

Final taste is most important to me, but I agree with Scooter that knowing the contents of any food product is important. Also, it's impossible to comparison shop for juice if you don't know what is in the bottle. They would do well to be more upfront with their customers. Especially since it seems they have changed their ingredients.

I also noticed that their recipe does not include K-meta at any time thru the process. I assume that's because -according to the label - they have added sulfur dioxide. But how much? They say to use Potassium Sorbate but not K-meta before bottling. They also say the the sweetness of the final wine is determined by the amount of sugar you add pre ferment. I'm pretty new to this, but do these things make sense to you guys?