WineXpert Fast vs. Slow fermentation

[Rocky]

How many gallons was your primary? A gallon of wine base is a bit pricey.

That primary had two kits plus the gallon of wine base plus an extra 2.5 gallons of water, so about 16 or so gallons in total. The container is a 22 gallon Brute (food grade). I just checked the price at Label Peelers and the fruit base is now $31.77 (40% off sale). At Home Brew Ohio it is $54.99. Recall that I bought these kits in 2021 or 2022, at which time I bought the wine base. I just looked back at my order and I paid $44.99 for the wine base.

$44.99

1 × Vintners Best Fruit Wine Base - Blackberry​

I must have been a lot richer then!

 

[wineview]

That primary had two kits plus the gallon of wine base plus an extra 2.5 gallons of water, so about 16 or so gallons in total. The container is a 22 gallon Brute (food grade). I just checked the price at Label Peelers and the fruit base is now $31.77 (40% off sale). At Home Brew Ohio it is $54.99. Recall that I bought these kits in 2021 or 2022, at which time I bought the wine base. I just looked back at my order and I paid $44.99 for the wine base.

$44.99

1 × Vintners Best Fruit Wine Base - Blackberry​

I must have been a lot richer then!

Interesting that you bought the base four years ago. I did a quick google search and saw prices in the $70 range. So for a six gallon batch you would not use more than half gallon of wine base. In your opinion what does the base add to the wine.

 

[Rocky]

Interesting that you bought the base four years ago. I did a quick google search and saw prices in the $70 range. So for a six gallon batch you would not use more than half gallon of wine base. In your opinion what does the base add to the wine.

I am not sure we are talking about the same product. The instructions on the base I bought said to add 4 gallons of water to the base to yield 5 gallons of wine with an ABV of about 10%.

To wit: "A blend of juice concentrates, corn syrup, citric acid and natural flavor designed to make a fermentable base for blackberry wine blend at 18.9 Brix. Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases All natural and made with real fruit juice, our fruit wine bases are crafted from the same formulations used by commercial wineries. Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases make five gallons of high quality fruit wine at 10% ABV. Extremely easy and convenient to make, requiring no pH adjustments and no acid adjustments. Made from all natural fruit juice and do not need to be strained or placed into any sort of mesh bag! Simply dilute one gallon of Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Base with four gallons of water, pitch a fruit wine yeast of your choice and stir! Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases are a superior replacement for any fruit wine base on the market."

It is available today here in Ohio from at least two suppliers, Label Peelers in Ravenna, Ohio, on sale for $31.77 (regular price is $52.95) and from Home Brew Ohio in Sandusky, Ohio for $54.77.

As regards, what does it add, I feel it accentuates a background flavor of Blackberries in the wine.

 

[BPL]

high temp increases nutrient demand and increases the risk of off flavors / yeast stress.

I agree with the risk of off flavors at elevated temperatures.

Please explain the, "high temp increases nutrient demand" part. How does that work?

 

[wineview]

I used to ferment at 70-72F. This year I boosted to 78-80F to extract more from the skins. So far have not noticed any off flavors.

 

[BPL]

I used a combination of D47 and EC1118 yeast in the reds

I suggest looking up the competitive factors of yeasts. Then look up "killer yeasts".

 

[Tripled92]

I agree with the risk of off flavors at elevated temperatures.

Please explain the, "high temp increases nutrient demand" part. How does that work?

Higher temperature makes the yeast go through fermentation faster. So it needs more nutrients in order to sustain that pace.

 

[BPL]

Higher temperature makes the yeast go through fermentation faster. So it needs more nutrients in order to sustain that pace.

Hmm. Ok, I see your reasoning. A follow up question...If X amount of energy (nutrient) is required to ferment Y amount of sugar, to produce a Z amount of alcohol, how does adding more energy (nutrient) balance out the equation? That would be like stopping at a gas station with a half tank of gas, and filling your car up all the way to travel 20 miles.

I'm all in, but are there any case studies or papers written to support the theory?

 

[Tripled92]

Hmm. Ok, I see your reasoning. A follow up question...If X amount of energy (nutrient) is required to ferment Y amount of sugar, to produce a Z amount of alcohol, how does adding more energy (nutrient) balance out the equation? That would be like stopping at a gas station with a half tank of gas, and filling your car up all the way to travel 20 miles.

I'm all in, but are there any case studies or papers written to support the theory?

You are asking great questions!

There are different type of nutrients. So to answer your question, you are more talking about fermaid K instead of fermaid O.
Let me break this down Wine kits already come adjusted with enough YAN to complete the fermentation process, so we use what is called fermaid O (vitamins and minerals) to keep the yeast happy to continue to eat, so it doesn’t stress its self.
Think of it like a person running to point A to point B. Said person could make it to point A to point B without water but will be tired in the end and sore. But if we give said person water during the process he will be in better shape when he reaches point B.

The example you gave is more so referring to fermaid K which contains DAP. So if you are working with grape juice that is insufficient in YAN, it won’t ferment at all or really struggle through the process. That’s when you add fermaid K. Which is closer to the example you were giving and using that you want to monitor the limits you are adding because like you said no reason to add a full tank when going 20 miles.

Fermaid O works a lot different so in theory you could add unlimited fermaid o and be fine because it works different.

Look up the terms that i had in what i wrote and it will bring up article and stuff for you to read! Any other questions just let me know

 

[Rotundifolia]

The higher temperatures will increase the tannins and color. Some level of OH is needed to get tannins. In the early part of fermentation, the skin tannins will be extracted. Later during fermentation, the seed (i.e. bitter) tannins will be captured. So if you want more color and good tannins, then I recommend higher temps early on and then lower temps later on. The you tube link goes into more detail and the use and timing of sacrificial tannins. It is a presentation from a vendor so they are trying to sell thier products, but there is good information none the less.

 

[BPL]

You are asking great questions!

There are different type of nutrients. So to answer your question, you are more talking about fermaid K instead of fermaid O.
Let me break this down Wine kits already come adjusted with enough YAN to complete the fermentation process, so we use what is called fermaid O (vitamins and minerals) to keep the yeast happy to continue to eat, so it doesn’t stress its self.
Think of it like a person running to point A to point B. Said person could make it to point A to point B without water but will be tired in the end and sore. But if we give said person water during the process he will be in better shape when he reaches point B.

The example you gave is more so referring to fermaid K which contains DAP. So if you are working with grape juice that is insufficient in YAN, it won’t ferment at all or really struggle through the process. That’s when you add fermaid K. Which is closer to the example you were giving and using that you want to monitor the limits you are adding because like you said no reason to add a full tank when going 20 miles.

Fermaid O works a lot different so in theory you could add unlimited fermaid o and be fine because it works different.

Look up the terms that i had in what i wrote and it will bring up article and stuff for you to read! Any other questions just let me know

So, no case studies or papers available? It's interesting that none of the YAN calculators I have seen (at least 5) include nutrient compensation for temperatures.

 

[Tripled92]

So, no case studies or papers available? It's interesting that none of the YAN calculators I have seen (at least 5) include nutrient compensation for temperatures.

https://www.bio-conferences.org/art...conf_oiv2022_02034/bioconf_oiv2022_02034.html

Here is one. You can look up “scholarly articles on how fermentation is affected by temperature” and like 10 plus papers come up.