Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[wineview]

If i understand you correctly, the issue I have doing what you mention is having a gap on the bottle side of the lid that would allow a fruit fly or gnat to gain access. Unless your mean leaving the lid centered on the bucket but loose (not snapped) and if this is the case, I don't understand why you would put a towel over the lid as it wouldn't add value.

I routinely ferment with loose cover just placed on top and then covered with a Star San soaked towel for about 3-4 days before snapping shut.

 

[Brant]

I routinely ferment with loose cover just placed on top and then covered with a Star San soaked towel for about 3-4 days before snapping shut.

I guess I don't see the point of a towel on top of the lid. If it's to cover the vent hole, a piece of tape makes more sense to me.

The lid overhangs the bucket and creates a lip similar to the eaves on a house. There will inherently be a gap on the sides that a towel will not cover. If the lid isn't good enough by itself, the towel won't make it any better.

Just my thoughts.

 

[wineview]

I guess I don't see the point of a towel on top of the lid. If it's to cover the vent hole, a piece of tape makes more sense to me.

The lid overhangs the bucket and creates a lip similar to the eaves on a house. There will inherently be a gap on the sides that a towel will not cover. If the lid isn't good enough by itself, the towel won't make it any better.

Just my thoughts.

I use a flour sack cloth soaked in k meta or star San and let it drape over the side of the bucket by about 3-4 inches. Just me. I think it adds a layer of protection on a loose lid.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I guess I don't see the point of a towel on top of the lid. If it's to cover the vent hole, a piece of tape makes more sense to me.

The lid overhangs the bucket and creates a lip similar to the eaves on a house. There will inherently be a gap on the sides that a towel will not cover. If the lid isn't good enough by itself, the towel won't make it any better.

Just my thoughts.

The point is the towel lets oxygen into the must. Tape over the airlock hole would prevent that.

 

[Brant]

The point is the towel lets oxygen into the must. Tape over the airlock hole would prevent that.

if the wine is off-gassing (which is likely the case during the ferment down to 1.01 SG), there is little/zero chance any air will get INTO the bucket through that little hole that the CO2 is escaping from. i'm not arguing or trying to convince anyone that their process is incorrect, i'm just stating what seems obvious to me.

edit:
i agree, that is the point of the towel and why you don't cover the bucket with the lid during the first couple days. i'm not saying it won't ferment, but the FWK instructions state to let it breathe. a lid on the bucket will prevent or at a minimum drastically limit this air exchange.

the first FWK i ran, i locked the lid throughout the entire ferment- start to finish. it worked fine and the wine is great. i just think it's better to not lock it down.

 

[wineview]

The point is the towel lets oxygen into the must. Tape over the airlock hole would prevent that.

My understanding is the must needs oxygen during the first few days of fermentation.

Yeast requires high levels of oxygenin order to do their wonderful job of taking sugar in the must (grape juice and concentrate) and making alcohol. To do this breeding yeast devours dissolved oxygen in your fermenting wine. This is especially important during the early hours and days of fermentation.

 

[silverbullet07]

Lifting the lid and stirring twice a day helps get the oxygen in the must.

 

[ratflinger]

I wish a company made a 9 or 10 gallon fermentation bucket with locking lid. The FWK kits I've done foam to the top and soak the towel. I keep a clean set of towels that I handwash in oxyclean and star-san and soak in kmeta before draping over the bucket. This is the only downside IMO to running these kits in 7.9 gal buckets.

I've not had any issues once locked down beyond 1.01 but I'm also not using a heating band during ferment like some people do.

If not for the fact that I've already accumulated more equipment than I care to admit, I would probably invest in some large stainless fermentation vessels.

https://smile.amazon.com/Bway-7J115...400&sprefix=10+gallonfermenter,aps,113&sr=8-5

 

[Brant]

https://smile.amazon.com/Bway-7J115...400&sprefix=10+gallonfermenter,aps,113&sr=8-5

I should've said I would like for someone to make one that is affordable in a larger size. I've seen some larger pails but haven't seen any with a locking gasket that I trust for a liquid tight seal.

I've considered spiedels but they jump from 8 gal to 16 gal without a size in between and they are expensive.

 

[wineview]

Lifting the lid and stirring twice a day helps get the oxygen in the must.

Agreed. I stir at least 2 times a day.

 

[sremick]

Whew. Just made it through all 102 pages. I've been sort of "out of commission" for a long time and I'm trying to get back into wine-making as a form of therapy and self-care. I discovered Finer Wine Kits on Label Peelers while poking around there for another reason, decided to do some research and it took me here. I think I'm a convert already.

I have to say: I'm extremely jealous of those of you who got in early to get that 10% lifetime discount. Unfortunately personal emergency/catastrophe occurred to me last July and after a few months in the hospital, and many more months sort of being "disconnected" and out of touch, I totally missed the opportunity. I'm 100% certain I would have ordered one to try had I known and been able. After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced I'll only be buying Finer Wine Kits in the future. Damn.

I'm left with a few questions after reading all 100+ pages.

#1) If FWK is buying their specially-produced non-pasteurized juice concentrates from a separate 3rd-party supplier, wouldn't that mean that said supplier would likely be selling the same product to other customers as well? Might we end up seeing other high-quality kits other than FWK since this special treatment of the concentrate is the main reason that the quality of the end-product is so much higher?

#2) Those of you topping-up your carboys with some other wine... how do you feel about how this affects the resulting character of the end product? It seems people here are hyper-sensitive about all sorts of nuances in their search to compare the wines they make and judge quality of various kits... but if your wine is adulterated with 5-10% something else, shouldn't that affect your judgement? (personally, I deal with headspace using argon and then a vacuum).

#3) this is for @oppyland . Regarding the post below: is that the 30L filled to the 6-gallon mark? That's a lot more spare space than I'd suspect. Yet it seems some people have had blowouts even on the 30L somehow...?

Started the Merlot over the weekend. I splurged on the 30l Speidel because I didn't want another mess like last time - should be plenty of room for foam in there!
View attachment 84659

Ok that's it for now. I still have a kit to finish and another one to start before I do my first FWK.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Whew. Just made it through all 102 pages. I've been sort of "out of commission" for a long time and I'm trying to get back into wine-making as a form of therapy and self-care. I discovered Finer Wine Kits on Label Peelers while poking around there for another reason, decided to do some research and it took me here. I think I'm a convert already.

I have to say: I'm extremely jealous of those of you who got in early to get that 10% lifetime discount. Unfortunately personal emergency/catastrophe occurred to me last July and after a few months in the hospital, and many more months sort of being "disconnected" and out of touch, I totally missed the opportunity. I'm 100% certain I would have ordered one to try had I known and been able. After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced I'll only be buying Finer Wine Kits in the future. Damn.

I'm left with a few questions after reading all 100+ pages.

#1) If FWK is buying their specially-produced non-pasteurized juice concentrates from a separate 3rd-party supplier, wouldn't that mean that said supplier would likely be selling the same product to other customers as well? Might we end up seeing other high-quality kits other than FWK since this special treatment of the concentrate is the main reason that the quality of the end-product is so much higher?

#2) Those of you topping-up your carboys with some other wine... how do you feel about how this affects the resulting character of the end product? It seems people here are hyper-sensitive about all sorts of nuances in their search to compare the wines they make and judge quality of various kits... but if your wine is adulterated with 5-10% something else, shouldn't that affect your judgement? (personally, I deal with headspace using argon and then a vacuum).

#3) this is for @oppyland . Regarding the post below: is that the 30L filled to the 6-gallon mark? That's a lot more spare space than I'd suspect. Yet it seems some people have had blowouts even on the 30L somehow...?



Ok that's it for now. I still have a kit to finish and another one to start before I do my first FWK.

1) FWK’s “supplier” is probably a vendor who creates the concentrate. They don’t grow the grapes, they don’t make wine. Their expertise is in making concentrate. It’s FWK’s job to assemble the kit in the right quantities and process steps for you to enjoy it. Don’t assume the product is second rate for that reason.

2) I usually top off with home made wine. Typically no more that 1 bottle in 5 gallons, so maybe 5%. I doubt you could taste the difference if it was added or not. Plus sometimes I want the added wine to be different, google right bank and left bank, if you’ve got Cab and Merlot in your cellar, why not use them.

 

[winemaker81]

#1) If FWK is buying their specially-produced non-pasteurized juice concentrates from a separate 3rd-party supplier, wouldn't that mean that said supplier would likely be selling the same product to other customers as well? Might we end up seeing other high-quality kits other than FWK since this special treatment of the concentrate is the main reason that the quality of the end-product is so much higher?

It's entirely possible. Time will tell.

#2) Those of you topping-up your carboys with some other wine... how do you feel about how this affects the resulting character of the end product?

This totally depends on what wine is used for topup. In my case, it works perfectly fine and having a single 23 liter carboy that's full for the duration of bulk aging makes life simpler.

Keep in mind that the kit is not some type of perfect entity. It's simply grape concentrate, and a dozen people can produce a dozen different results, based upon situations and choices made during winemaking. All of those results can be good.

 

[sremick]

1) FWK’s “supplier” is probably a vendor who creates the concentrate. They don’t grow the grapes, they don’t make wine. Their expertise is in making concentrate. It’s FWK’s job to assemble the kit in the right quantities and process steps for you to enjoy it. Don’t assume the product is second rate for that reason.

Did you miss the part where I said that I was a convert to FWK and that that's all I'd be buying in the future?

I did not say or mean to suggest that they were "second rate". My point was, if the supplier was a 3rd-party, for how long does FWK hold a monopoly on this new level of kit quality?

 

[ratflinger]

Did you miss the part where I said that I was a convert to FWK and that that's all I'd be buying in the future?

I did not say or mean to suggest that they were "second rate". My point was, if the supplier was a 3rd-party, for how long does FWK hold a monopoly on this new level of kit quality?

Well it takes a while to get something new going. I doubt if any of the big guys really care, they have their product and sales stream set. FWK had LablePeelers & this forum to help them along. The real question would be how long does LP have exclusive rights to FWK. I'm sure the FWK folks would like to grow large enough to be a 'problem' for WE or RJS. Personally I'd like slow and steady growth, you know what explosive growth tends to do to quality.

 

[3dB]

Yeast requires high levels of oxygen in order to do their wonderful job of taking sugar in the must (grape juice and concentrate) and making alcohol.

True. Yet oxygen is a double-edged sword. It is necessary for yeast to build cell walls (with healthy transport mechanisms) during their multiplication and early growth. Tiny amounts of O2 can be beneficial throughout fermentation and aging. And, of course, oxidation is the primary mechanism in a newly-opened bottle "breathing" to maximize floral and fruity aromas. But too much oxygen will do nasty things to your wine, and commercial wineries use closed vessels and purge headspace with CO2 or N2 to avoid oxidation.

A high rate of Dissolved Oxygen (DO) is most critical at the start of fermentation. I use a sanitized stainless diffusion stone and bubble pure O2 into my yeast starter, and into the juice just after pitching the yeast. The yeast take up the DO almost immediately, and FWIU the danger of oxidation is minimal. This, plus the O2 in the headspace before CO2 generation dilutes and purges it, is sufficient to get the yeast through. I submerge the skins to avoid the need to punch down, and I only open the bucket again to add the nutrient pack, and to remove the seeds if I'm doing EM on the skins. I'd rather not remove the lid for either, but in both operations the benefit outweighs the exposure, and there is still active fermentation and CO2 generation.

After fermentation, oxygen is definitly a greater hazard than help, but some winemakers believe in small quantities it mellows the flavors, and checks H2S formation. For reds, some winemakers use macroaeration -- intentionally adding air during racking by splashing the wine against the side of the carboy, and/or inserting a venturi into the line to suck in air, or even racking to a tray with a fan blowing over it, which drains into the carboy. All of which strike me as excessive; I think the wine gets plenty enough O2 just from surface exposure to air during racking.

It's a delicate dance, and the only way to really be sure is with a DO monitor. I err on the side of caution, and try (as much as possible without going bonkers on equipment) to minimize my wine's exposure to oxygen, other than intentionally injecting it up front.

 

[Brant]

True. Yet oxygen is a double-edged sword. It is necessary for yeast to build cell walls (with healthy transport mechanisms) during their multiplication and early growth. Tiny amounts of O2 can be beneficial throughout fermentation and aging. And, of course, oxidation is the primary mechanism in a newly-opened bottle "breathing" to maximize floral and fruity aromas. But too much oxygen will do nasty things to your wine, and commercial wineries use closed vessels and purge headspace with CO2 or N2 to avoid oxidation.

A high rate of Dissolved Oxygen (DO) is most critical at the start of fermentation. I use a sanitized stainless diffusion stone and bubble pure O2 into my yeast starter, and into the juice just after pitching the yeast. The yeast take up the DO almost immediately, and FWIU the danger of oxidation is minimal. This, plus the O2 in the headspace before CO2 generation dilutes and purges it, is sufficient to get the yeast through. I submerge the skins to avoid the need to punch down, and I only open the bucket again to add the nutrient pack, and to remove the seeds if I'm doing EM on the skins. I'd rather not remove the lid for either, but in both operations the benefit outweighs the exposure, and there is still active fermentation and CO2 generation.

After fermentation, oxygen is definitly a greater hazard than help, but some winemakers believe in small quantities it mellows the flavors, and checks H2S formation. For reds, some winemakers use macroaeration -- intentionally adding air during racking by splashing the wine against the side of the carboy, and/or inserting a venturi into the line to suck in air, or even racking to a tray with a fan blowing over it, which drains into the carboy. All of which strike me as excessive; I think the wine gets plenty enough O2 just from surface exposure to air during racking.

It's a delicate dance, and the only way to really be sure is with a DO monitor. I err on the side of caution, and try (as much as possible without going bonkers on equipment) to minimize my wine's exposure to oxygen, other than intentionally injecting it up front.

Good information and thought process.

How do you submerge the skins? I used 2 glass weights (about 400 grams) on my last ferment and they were still not enough to hold the skins down. I was considering using more but they are also taking up valuable space as these kits foam to the top as is.

 

[3dB]

How do you submerge the skins? I used 2 glass weights (about 400 grams) on my last ferment and they were still not enough to hold the skins down. I was considering using more but they are also taking up valuable space as these kits foam to the top as is.

My problem precisely!

I use glass weights -- two or three per bag of skins. Don't really want to go with anything metal, as glass is so easy to clean and sanitize. My current strategy is to look for a taller fermentation bucket!

https://www.amazon.com/TOPZEA-Fermentation-Sauerkraut-Vegetables-Fermented/dp/B08SM8R3K1/ref=sr_1_24

 

[winemaker81]

How do you submerge the skins? I used 2 glass weights (about 400 grams) on my last ferment and they were still not enough to hold the skins down. I was considering using more but they are also taking up valuable space as these kits foam to the top as is.

Does submerging the skins produce a result that is better than punching down the cap several times per day?

For red grape -- while a commonly stated reason for punching down the cap is to ensure it stays wet so mold doesn't grow, punching down physically manipulates the grapes solids and helps with extraction, as well as adding O2 that yeast needs to reproduce. For all these reasons it's a necessary and beneficial process. And for red grape -- the amount of pomace makes it impractical to weight it down -- the following picture is the pomace from 150 lbs of Merlot on the base of a #40 press:




However, in this thread we're talking kits with skin packs, which are much lesser in grape solids volume. The following picture is 6 skin packs from 3 Forte kits, in a 32 gallon Brute:



It's a LOT less volume, so the idea of submerging the bags is possible.

My method: I used a stainless steel paddle and pushed each skin pack down to the bottom and scraped it along the bottom, stirring up any sediment, and roughing the bag but not to the point of tearing it. This was repeated 4 to 6 times for each bag.

Side Note -- Last year there was question if the bag limits the maceration by clumping the skins. IMO no, as the bags are not tight and were easy to manipulate and the pomace inside was moving freely. When "pressing" the kits, I held each bag over the Brute and let a lot of liquid drain, then hung each inside a 6 to 8 gallon fermenter to drain for 10 minutes while I was pumping out of the Brute. I recovered several liters during draining, and later pressed the bags, recovering an additional 1.5 liters of wine. Wine flow through the pomace appears good. Punching down 3 times per day helps with this.

Will weighting the bags down provide the same level of manipulation? I doubt it -- In my case "punching down" each Brute took about 5 minutes -- who is stirring for 5 minutes each time? I admit that when making reds from juice and whites, I don't put as much effort into stirring, probably a minute per fermenter each time (typically 3 times per day). Seeing the pulp and/or skin packs gives me a bit more ambition.

 

[Brant]

Does submerging the skins produce a result that is better than punching down the cap several times per day?

For red grape -- while a commonly stated reason for punching down the cap is to ensure it stays wet so mold doesn't grow, punching down physically manipulates the grapes solids and helps with extraction, as well as adding O2 that yeast needs to reproduce. For all these reasons it's a necessary and beneficial process. And for red grape -- the amount of pomace makes it impractical to weight it down -- the following picture is the pomace from 150 lbs of Merlot on the base of a #40 press:

View attachment 92621


However, in this thread we're talking kits with skin packs, which are much lesser in grape solids volume. The following picture is 6 skin packs from 3 Forte kits, in a 32 gallon Brute:

View attachment 92622

It's a LOT less volume, so the idea of submerging the bags is possible.

My method: I used a stainless steel paddle and pushed each skin pack down to the bottom and scraped it along the bottom, stirring up any sediment, and roughing the bag but not to the point of tearing it. This was repeated 4 to 6 times for each bag.

Side Note -- Last year there was question if the bag limits the maceration by clumping the skins. IMO no, as the bags are not tight and were easy to manipulate and the pomace inside was moving freely. When "pressing" the kits, I held each bag over the Brute and let a lot of liquid drain, then hung each inside a 6 to 8 gallon fermenter to drain for 10 minutes while I was pumping out of the Brute. I recovered several liters during draining, and later pressed the bags, recovering an additional 1.5 liters of wine. Wine flow through the pomace appears good. Punching down 3 times per day helps with this.

Will weighting the bags down provide the same level of manipulation? I doubt it -- In my case "punching down" each Brute took about 5 minutes -- who is stirring for 5 minutes each time? I admit that when making reds from juice and whites, I don't put as much effort into stirring, probably a minute per fermenter each time (typically 3 times per day). Seeing the pulp and/or skin packs gives me a bit more ambition.

My purpose for weighting the bag was not to eliminate punch down, it was to keep everything submerged and wet throughout the ferment AND during EM (extended to 4+ weeks). I still agitate in the first 3 days to mix/stir as I believe there is benefit for extraction.

I'm also a little OCD.