Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[winemaker81]

My purpose for weighting the bag was not to eliminate punch down, it was to keep everything submerged and wet throughout the ferment AND during EM (extended to 4+ weeks). I still agitate in the first 3 days to mix/stir as I believe there is benefit for extraction.

Everything I've read about EM indicates that keeping the cap wet is not a problem during the EM due to the space being filled with CO2.

The hard part is trusting what we read, right?

 

[Brant]

Everything I've read about EM indicates that keeping the cap web is not a problem during the EM due to the space being filled with CO2.

The hard part is trusting what we read, right?

Sure. I do a lot of things based on assumptions and what "feels" right. A lot of shooting from the hip takes place. That's how we learn, right? And other people's mistakes- even though I make plenty of my own.

 

[winemaker81]

And other people's mistakes- even though I make plenty of my own.

In winemaking, living vicariously though the mistakes of others is a far less painful method!

I wing it a lot when cooking, but not in winemaking. Too much work and too much money that may be wasted. I've dumped carboys in the past and have no interest in ever doing it again.

Research is my friend -- there's a lot of good information on the net, although finding it can take a bit of effort. When I take a risk, it's based upon educated guesses, and never just plain 'ole guessing.

Good judgment comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad judgment.

 

[3dB]

Does submerging the skins produce a result that is better than punching down the cap several times per day?

Unknown -- I haven't brewed otherwise identical batches with a double blind tasting 6 months later. But it's not an unreasonable assumption. The primary reason for punching down skins is because they're nucleation sites for taking CO2 out of solution, which floats them partially out of suspension. Grape skins floating above the must are contributing zero flavor/color/tannins/etc. Punching down the bags gets the skins back in solution where they can do their thing, but after a few hours, and overnight, they're partially floating again. It makes sense (to me, anyway) that skins 100% submerged, 100% of the time, can contribute more stuff to the must.

My primary motivation was not enhancing the outcome but rather avoiding known sources of potential degradation (O2 exposure and bacterial contamination) -- and to eliminate the maintenance factor.

But it is also not an unreasonable assumption that agitating the skins helps with extraction. Most "steepings" follow a basically inverse exponential extraction rate -- the most color/flavor/whatever is released early, with progressively less contribution over time. Assuming that's also true here, the greatest benefit to agitation would be in the first few days of fermentation. Fortunately, that's when the yeast are still active, and may still be multiplying and taking up the added O2, and are still producing CO2 to dilute and displace O2 in the headspace. So I think I'll stick with submerging the skins and add some agitation in the first few days. Thanks for the idea.

 

[QuiQuog]

Just throwing this out there as a thought. In the case of submerged skins, the CO2 rising through it would privide some measure of agitation on its own. Maybe not as much as a gentle squeeze, but during EM when it's not being touched for weeks it may be better than letting it float.

 

[winemaker81]

I haven't brewed otherwise identical batches with a double blind tasting 6 months later.

That sounds like a worth while experiment.

It makes sense (to me, anyway) that skins 100% submerged, 100% of the time, can contribute more stuff to the must.

That does make sense, although it is a trade-off with the physical manipulation -- which has a greater effect? I have seen no research on this subject, so it would be a useful read, if it exists.

Most "steepings" follow a basically inverse exponential extraction rate -- the most color/flavor/whatever is released early, with progressively less contribution over time.

Yup. Numerous sources indicate that color, flavor, and aroma are rapidly extracted in the first 2 to 5 days, and the rate drops off sharply after that. Conversely, tannin extraction slows down but continues to happen over weeks or even months. I suspect you're correct in that the extraction benefit of punch down is greatly reduced after day 5.

If following the FWK protocol (sealing fermenter when SG is below 1.020), that falls right in with ~5 days. It's also a point where O2 is not needed as the yeast is eating and not reproducing. This all lines up neatly, which I did not recognize before this.

 

[Jovimaple]

This hobby is a procrastinator's dream! Why, yes, I may let it sit the full 14 days! Or almost - I will be out of town on day 14, as well, so I would have to do it a day or so early anyway.

I ended up racking, degassing, stabilizing, and adding clearing agents last night - day 11 after yeast pitch.

I also sampled it - yummy!!

I don't have a 6 gallon carboy so I split it into a 5 gallon which has the oak cubes and the clearing agents, and a 13 cup jug that only got K-meta and degassing. It will be interesting to see how the 2 differ over time.

 

[Gilmango]

A couple new blends were just announced and are on pre-sale, supposed to ship at end of September: SOUTHERN RHONE (grenache plus syrah and moscato) and NORTHERN RHONE (syrah plus chardonnay and riesling).

Not clear if that would mean 2021 fruit or 2022 fruit? Guessing if they ship that soon it is still 2021 fruit.

Interesting inclusions of white wine varietals. I bet they really boost the aroma and complexity, so that sounds promising to me. But I think those particular varietals are not common in the Rhone. However, Viognier is common in Northern Rhone with Syrah: "In the northern Rhone valley, viognier has been used in small percentages to co-ferment with syrah to aid in stabilizing the abundant color of syrah and to temper tannin extraction. This has been successfully done for hundreds of years." Co-Fermentation of Syrah and Viognier for a Better Wine - Ridge Vineyards

and "According to Côte-Rôtie law, the Syrah and Viognier grapes must be fermented at the same time, a process called co-fermentation. Viognier, when bottled alone, is an aromatic white wine with intoxicating floral, spice and peach notes. When Viognier mingles with Syrah, it adds these same elements, including a rounder mouthfeel. These Viognier influences can be a great contrast to some of the meaty and minerally notes of Syrahs, making them intriguing wines that you can't stop sniffing. Bacon and peaches? In the same wine? Don't knock it until you smell it." Why is Viognier added to some Syrah? | Wine Spectator

I'm guessing the white grape additions here are for the same basic reasons, and were what was more readily available and worked best in trial batches. I really love Grenache based wines so I'll probably give the Southern Rhone one a try after I get through some fresh grapes I hope to pick soon.

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting inclusions of white wine varietals.

A number of different whites are used to temper the Syrah in the northern Rhone wines. I assume, like with the other blends, Matteo matched the profile and didn't worry much about the actual grapes used. I'm ok with that.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Brant - whenever I make a kit that does not come with skins I feel duty bound to at least add 4-8 oz. of raisins or currants or a more specific fruit, depending on what my wife (the baker) has on hand, and what the wine varietal's flavor profile suggests. Winefolly is a great source for that and here is what it says about Sangiovese: Guide to Sangiovese Wine and Pronunciation | Wine Folly so for Sangiovese, if I did not have skins on hand, I would add dried cherries, dried plums (aka prunes), strawberries, or figs based on this: FRUIT: Tart Cherry, Red Plum, Strawberry, Fig.

If I did not have or did not want to lean into any of those flavors, I'd just add currants or raisins like you suggested, 4-8 oz. of currants or raisins, it will add a bit of sugar and a bit of 'structure' (tannins, mouthfeel, etc) in addition to a bit of a sugar/abv boost.

I did make a Tavola Sangiovese myself so I checked my notes. Turns out I bought a Forte and a Tavola at the same time and reserved 500 grams (just over a pound) of skins and seeds from the Forte kit, so I just added that to my Sangiovese. I did an EM as well, 4 weeks total from start to secondary.

If we had dried cherries on hand I likely would've added those but I think we did not so I just stuck with the pound of skins and seeds.

Assuming you have none of the cherries/prunes/strawberries/figs then I'd just go with 8 oz. of currants. Good luck!

My dried Michigan Tart cherries - say w/sunflower oil & sugar added. Ok to use or not so much?

 

[Gilmango]

My dried Michigan Tart cherries - say w/sunflower oil & sugar added. Ok to use or not so much?

I asked this same question about the oil, at least, on WMT, probably on tweaking cheap kits thread, and the suggestion was to just rinse (or briefly soak) the dried fruit with oil in warm water. Then should be fine to use it (if soaking just add the fruit not the soaking liquid), as the amount of oil is pretty minimal just to keep the fruit from sticking. For the sugar part I would not really worry, I prefer it without sugar for eating or baking but in wine the sugar will just add a tiny boost to the abv, probably negligible to your original gravity or, at most, a '1 point' boost.

 

[joeswine]

Sure. I do a lot of things based on assumptions and what "feels" right. A lot of shooting from the hip takes place. That's how we learn, right? And other people's mistakes- even though I make plenty of my own.

Yes indeed

 

[joeswine]

I asked this same question about the oil, at least, on WMT, probably on tweaking cheap kits thread, and the suggestion was to just rinse (or briefly soak) the dried fruit with oil in warm water. Then should be fine to use it (if soaking just add the fruit not the soaking liquid), as the amount of oil is pretty minimal just to keep the fruit from sticking. For the sugar part I would not really worry, I prefer it without sugar for eating or baking but in wine the sugar will just add a tiny boost to the abv, probably negligible to your original gravity or, at most, a '1 point' boost.

Never read that on tweaking cheap wine kits,

 

[joeswine]

In winemaking, living vicariously though the mistakes of others is a far less painful method!

I wing it a lot when cooking, but not in winemaking. Too much work and too much money that may be wasted. I've dumped carboys in the past and have no interest in ever doing it again.

Research is my friend -- there's a lot of good information on the net, although finding it can take a bit of effort. When I take a risk, it's based upon educated guesses, and never just plain 'ole guessing.

Good judgment comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad judgment.

Not bad judgment just I’ll informed or pure ignorance and taking a shot or all the above

 

[Gilmango]

Never read that on tweaking cheap wine kits,

@joeswine - You're right it was on the "making-a-fpac' thread which I think you also started, so I confused the two. That's where I asked about using dried fruit, how to deal with the oil issue, etc. Bottom post on page 11 of that thread, with answers from you and others on the next page: making a fpac

 

[Old Corker]

I just got the notification that my two new FWKs are out for delivery today. I got Forte kits for Baby Super Tuscan and Sonoma. I'm thinking about freezing one of the skins packs and only using one in the BST kit. Looking for a lighter body red there. The Sonoma gets the full body treatment (meaning two skins packs, seeds pack and EM) Thought?

 

[joeswine]

@joeswine - You're right it was on the "making-a-fpac' thread which I think you also started, so I confused the two. That's where I asked about using dried fruit, how to deal with the oil issue, etc. Bottom post on page 11 of that thread, with answers from you and others on the next page: making a fpac

Ok , using wet or dried fruit depending on the fruit usually goes directly in

 

[jgmann67]

My pre-ordered Sonoma blend kits showed up yesterday. Will stop on the way home tonight and get some distilled water and prep the kits for a morning ferment. I haven't even opened the boxes yet. Been a rough month or so and I have had very little time to play in the cellar. Looking forward to it.

So, really, the only "news" here is that pre-ordered kits are starting to show up on doorsteps. It takes a day to get from LP in Ohio to my doorstep in PA. Anyone else should be getting a visit from the FedEx guy today or tomorrow. Will post in a little bit with my impression of the kit.

 

[jgmann67]

Reconstituted the juice and prepped the must on Saturday. Dropped the yeast in my Sonoma blends on Sunday morning. The SG was a solid 1.110 for both batches and the juice smelled pretty phenomenal. Fermentation is active... the foam from punching is like dropping a scoop of vanilla ice cream in a glass of coke. Punching twice a day and will check the SG tomorrow morning then likely kick in the yeast nutrient.

I've been drinking my other FWK wines... likely long before their prime. And, they've been good. But, lately they've been coming into their own and are now tasting really good, bordering on great.

 

[silverbullet07]

I have my Sonoma and Meritage arriving tomorrow Looking forward to getting them going.